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Scotland and Independance

Scotland and Independance

Old Sep 7th 2014, 11:53 am
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
I don't think it works like that because Scotland would be pulling out from the UK which is the entity that has made the agreements with the EU. They would effectively be pulling out of both at the same time.
Yes, I was addressing your point "Is that the "Yes, we want to swap government by the British Union to government by the European Union" movement?"

If they did gain independence and join the EU powers currently in westminster would obviously go to scotland, and EU laws already in Scotland would be re-introduced to Scotland if they re-enter the EU so little difference. Only major difference might be if they eventually decide on full monetary union as well down the track. Presumably they also have the option of rejecting monetary union like the UK does. Independence would obviously lead to far more self determination for Scotland overall either way

Regardless of other reasons, I personally think a Yes vote is unlikely given the difficulty of persuading people to undertake major change.

I do wonder though whether even a healthy Yes vote that is below the 50% will leave behind a schism of retaliation/mistrust that can only be healed by a future Yes vote.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 12:33 pm
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
Presumably they also have the option of rejecting monetary union like the UK does.
Nope, it's been made clear they will be seeking entry as a new state, therefore they get the same terms as everyone else entering (you have to agree to the euro, and thus control from Berlin).

About their best chance of skirting some of that is if the UK voted to leave the EU before the scottish left the UK. Then they might get successor state recognition to piss off the UK (although they still wouldn't have any weight to throw around, so would probably have to give up much of the UKs opt outs to swing it).

Either way, they end up on the other side of a border from their main trading partner.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:05 pm
  #123  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
Yes, I was addressing your point "Is that the "Yes, we want to swap government by the British Union to government by the European Union" movement?"

If they did gain independence and join the EU powers currently in westminster would obviously go to scotland, and EU laws already in Scotland would be re-introduced to Scotland if they re-enter the EU so little difference. Only major difference might be if they eventually decide on full monetary union as well down the track. Presumably they also have the option of rejecting monetary union like the UK does. Independence would obviously lead to far more self determination for Scotland overall either way

Regardless of other reasons, I personally think a Yes vote is unlikely given the difficulty of persuading people to undertake major change.

I do wonder though whether even a healthy Yes vote that is below the 50% will leave behind a schism of retaliation/mistrust that can only be healed by a future Yes vote.
You've made a good point there. But regardless of the way this vote goes it could leave a legacy of mistrust among Scotland's inhabitants. And what if they vote yes and then the wheels begin to fall off?
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:27 pm
  #124  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Nope, it's been made clear they will be seeking entry as a new state, therefore they get the same terms as everyone else entering (you have to agree to the euro, and thus control from Berlin).

About their best chance of skirting some of that is if the UK voted to leave the EU before the scottish left the UK. Then they might get successor state recognition to piss off the UK (although they still wouldn't have any weight to throw around, so would probably have to give up much of the UKs opt outs to swing it).

Either way, they end up on the other side of a border from their main trading partner.
Yes, be interesting to see how it pans out....apparently it is in both countries interests that trade barriers remain low so hard negotiations would have to commence immediately. Challenging, exciting and interesting times on both sides of the border I would imagine.

Personally I would hope that this eventually leads to a fairer UK or rUK for places like the North East of England.

Last edited by fish.01; Sep 7th 2014 at 1:32 pm.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:32 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by paulry View Post
You've made a good point there. But regardless of the way this vote goes it could leave a legacy of mistrust among Scotland's inhabitants. And what if they vote yes and then the wheels begin to fall off?
Independence happens whatever the situation. A yes vote commits Scotland to independence regardless of good or bad, a yes vote must be pushed through and once returned England must be proactive and aim to set a quick timetable for full Scottish independence.

NE England I feel is more pro Scottish independence more so than the South of England.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:34 pm
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
Yes, be interesting to see how it pans out....apparently it is in both countries interests that trade barriers remain low so hard negotiations would have to commence immediately. Challenging, exciting and interesting times on both sides of the border I would imagine.

Personally I would hope that this eventually leads to a fairer UK or rUK for places like the North East of England.


EXACTLY. I have said all along that Scotland should be pushed towards independence by England, I feel it is both interests. Embrace it and go in hard once the yes vote comes in.

I feel England has as much to gain as Scotland, and if the English government play their cards right it could be a boon for the south of the border
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:35 pm
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by Jon77 View Post
Independence happens whatever the situation. A yes vote commits Scotland to independence regardless of good or bad, a yes vote must be pushed through and once returned England must be proactive and aim to set a quick timetable for full Scottish independence.

NE England I feel is more pro Scottish independence more so than the South of England.
or the Uk even
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:37 pm
  #128  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
or the Uk even
**** the rest of the UK, they will be inspired by Scotland to break away, it will be everyone for themselves.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:39 pm
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by Jon77 View Post
**** the rest of the UK, they will be inspired by Scotland to break away, it will be everyone for themselves.
If England keeps substituting the word UK with England I'm inclined to agree It will be the UK parliament I imagine doing the "setting of timetables" (in concert with the SNP of course) so even the one Scottish UK MP may have a voice

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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:56 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

It's gonna be messy.......
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 1:57 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

There has to be a better way that doesn't involve breaking the UK into it's constituent parts. We are all British together and have a rich and shared heritage. We'd be better improving the way in which the government operates.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 2:05 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Let the Scots make their own decision. There are positive and negative aspects for both choices, however, I think it's a good chance for Scotland and it's people to have more control over their own lives instead of silly decisions from Westminster.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 2:06 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
If England keeps substituting the word UK with England I'm inclined to agree It will be the UK parliament I imagine doing the "setting of timetables" (in concert with the SNP of course) so even the one Scottish UK MP may have a voice
I think it would be sensible to assume that if scotland were unwise enough to hand Cameron a yes - he wouldn't be taking any notice of the SNP.

The thing people seem to be forgetting is any act of separation is a law written, voted on and agreed in Westminster. It will say what Cameron wants it to say - because after a vote for independence, he doesn't need any SNP agreement to kick scotland out of the union- just a parliament that won't be well disposed towards the ones that have just voted to leave.

Could he arrange to kick them out at the same time as the UK elections? Its difficult to see how the timelines could be managed - unless Cameron has everything planned and written already - which he might well have. Presenting the SNP with a fait accompli on the 19th Sept would make it very obvious that he can't wait to be shot of them though.
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 2:46 pm
  #134  
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
I think it would be sensible to assume that if scotland were unwise enough to hand Cameron a yes - he wouldn't be taking any notice of the SNP.

The thing people seem to be forgetting is any act of separation is a law written, voted on and agreed in Westminster. It will say what Cameron wants it to say - because after a vote for independence, he doesn't need any SNP agreement to kick scotland out of the union- just a parliament that won't be well disposed towards the ones that have just voted to leave.

Could he arrange to kick them out at the same time as the UK elections? Its difficult to see how the timelines could be managed - unless Cameron has everything planned and written already - which he might well have. Presenting the SNP with a fait accompli on the 19th Sept would make it very obvious that he can't wait to be shot of them though.
He'd just be shooting himself in the foot really...his position would be shaky enough without doing much of that...
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Old Sep 7th 2014, 10:57 pm
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Default Re: Scotland and Independance

Originally Posted by fish.01 View Post
He'd just be shooting himself in the foot really...his position would be shaky enough without doing much of that...
You think so?

I'd suggest not giving those revolting scots an inch would bolster his position enormously...
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