jingles

May I ask a question?
What do you think a fair punishment would be for a child who 'broke' the rules?
The kids today (yes! I am an elderly person) are so aware of their 'rights' (though not their 'responsibilities') that there is little that can be done by way of disciplining them.
There is certainly something wrong when a kid can defy the police because they are under 16 years of age and claim that they can't be punished; when a child can divorce their parents, because they claim unfair treatment and a girl can sue her parents because she was grounded.
In my youth - the headmaster had a few canes on top of the cupboard; the local bobbie clipped your ear and marched you home to dad, who gave you another one for shaming him in front of the neighbours.....isn't there a happy medium?
jingles - grandmother

virginiec

I agree with you in the main. Yes the pendulum has swung too far in favour of the kids. Kids are a lot more clued up on their "rights" due to the advent of the internet.

I think a detention was justified. It was just the length that surprised me. Back in the UK they only tended to last half an hour after school...

Lordflasheart

Could have been worse. They could have given her a stripey shirt, shackled her to a ship and sent her back to blighty.

Sally Simpson

After school detention at my son's school is an hour (UK). Very inconvenient for me as he gets a school bus usually Thankfully has only happened once & I fully support the school with whatever they decide.
To the OP, I think this has been one of the more interesting threads of late so thanks for that!

virginiec

Thanks for your compliment. I guess my daughter also deserves part of the credit!

I wasnt impressed at having to come and pick her up after work though

SpookyET

I find detentions idiotic. They solve nothing. They actually encourage bad behaviour. Once you've been detained, you want to live. And, you'll execute that wish.

Treat children as adults, and they'll behave as such. I've had the opportunity to witness different education systems. Children in 1-4th grades in Eastern Europe (Romania) are more mature than 12th grade high school students in the states. Treat them like college. No detentions, no parent calls, no notes, no written passes to go to the bathroom or to another location, no prison.

Let nature take it course. It works. If you tell a child that you can't do X, he will do X. Tell the child the consequences of X; then allow the child to experience those consequences. He'll never do it again. I'm not talking about threats. I'm talking about, "if you do this, you may experience this, which is unpleasant, and you may hurt x y z in the process, which won't like you very much afterwards." Positive reinforcement works. You have to give children responsibility for their own lives.

Coming from a free country in Eastern Europe, I hated high school in USA. I had more freedom in 1st grade. At 6 years old, I used to get on me bike with me mates and ride the entire city. Got back home whenever. My school grades were perfect. I had perfect 10 scores on a scale of 1 to 10 until 4th grade when I left the country.

In USA, you can't leave your children alone until the age of 14. You have to accompany them to the bus and be ready to pick them up when they return. They are stuck in front of the telly or video games, much less outside the house, not that there is much to do in the subdivisions. You have detentions, a to b passes, phone calls to parents if you miss, drug free zone. In one case, a 13 year old girl was stripped searched by a male principal for ADVIL. If she was my daughter, I would have put that Nazi pedophile into the emergency room and shipped my daughter to freedom. It took the supreme court 3 bloody years to rule it unconstitutional. US is a prison until university, at least in the public school system. Though, I suspect, private schools are even worst since they are religion based.

The first taste of freedom children get is at university. You have full freedom to come and go as you please. No request for permissions. No calling of parents. But, even then, the young adults seem to have a problem with taking that freedom. I see a large percent of freshman at orientation with parents, I see more parents than students. The last time my dad brought me to school was first day of first grade.

I know that Australia take some culture from USA. Don't! It's rubbish, and it does not work. Colleges are good in US. K12 is rubbish. Look to Eastern Europe for 1-12. There is a reason why they have free childhoods, are more mature, and get math gold medals in Olympics (they take calculus in 9th grade as opposed to university.) The soviet system, minus the propaganda in history class, works. It's very similar to university.

I'm moving from US to Australia. Should I have a child, I hope I won't have to stamp Expedited Shipping Par Avion on his arse and ship him to freedom to Romania.

Sarah17

As a 17 year old who will be going back to high school once we move to Australia later this year i can say this thread is something which took my interest. When i was at school here in the uk i only once skipped school and never really gave much thought to the dangers of not being were i should of been. However now im older and given recent events in the uk i can understand the dangers of truancy and if anything bad happened to you nobody would know and by the time they did it might be too late. As for the 2 hour after school detention given as punishment i think its more than fair so long as parents are informed in advance. Mind you i'll perhaps change my mind about detentions once im back at high school later this year and specially if im ever given a Saturday detention and have to go in uniform too like im lead to beleive! Detentions are fine for kids but not for 17/18 year olds

Sally Simpson

Very interesting post & nice to read a school age persons view!

reboundpoms

Hi spookyet, i think that your freedom approach is very flawed on many levels.
Having freedom may have worked for you but i certainly isnt something that i think should happen in schools. for some kids lack of boundries is the begining of the end. all kids should have freedom to play, without question, but giving a 10-15 yr old all the options and expecting them to make the right choice is laughable. If a child makes a wrong decision once and nothing happens (except they get a big thrill or a huge reward) they WILL make that decision again and again. It will all be too late before something bad happens and either they or someone else loses thier life, badly injured, goes missing etc.
In australia the kids HAVE to wear thier hat, what will you do if your childes hates wearing a hat, allow him/her to go without, becuase they will only get heatstoke once and learn thier lesson. Rules for kids are thier to protect them. and kids have to learn to follow the rules or you end up with kids who think they can do whatever they please.
What i dont understand is, are you saying that you think kids should be allowed to jump school whenever they feel like it. if that was the case, we would end up with a generation of uneducated, unemployable layabouts because if they cant learn to spend 6-7 hours in one plae without going awol they certainly arent going to want to spent all day in an office without any thriils or fun chucked in.

louise

SpookyET

Please provide evidence.

That kind of thinking is the problem. Trust a child at least once before you deem him untrustworthy. Maturity requires responsibility. If you deem him untrustworthy, you will not give him responsibility. Those who gain responsibility at age 18 are more likely to make unrecoverable mistakes because they have not had experience.

I talked about a 6 years old kid. Not 10-15. Have I done some crazy stuff? Yes. Have I learnt from those mistakes? Yes, I have. I have scars to prove it. I have learnt. I have learnt on my own, not from lectures from my parents, which were quiet rare. A parent is not there. A parent hears a second hand account. The child should be capable to learn.

By the end of 8th grade in Romania, you need to know what you want to do with your life because high schools (called colleges) are profile based. If you want to be a cop, go to a cop high school. If you want to be an officer instead of enlisted, go to a cop high school, then cop university ( 3 year academy, used to be 4). Yes, cops are educated.

Before driving age, the risk of death is small. By driving age, due to experience, the child is already shaped into a responsible young adult.

I was too cool for hats. After a big headache, believe me, there no more objections from me, but until experiencing that heatstroke, I did not believe. I felt it was oppression.

True, rules are meant to protect, but until a human experiences a post action consequence, that rule is viewed as an oppression. There are plenty of rules that are just plain stupid created out of fear, or worst, to impose someone's morality.

Force doesn't make a child want to be there. He'll be there and feel oppressed. He'll stare at the walls for 6-7 hours and learn nothing. Knowledge cannot be shoved down a throat. A child must be willing to learn. A child must want to be there.

In Romania, a child will skip once or twice. Eventually, he'll be cought by police and taken to the station. The legal system is a bigger scare than any punishment a parent can provide, especially if a bored SWAT operator 10 times the child's size decides to give him a lecture.

This hasn't just worked for me. It has worked for me and most of my mates. I say most because those that were imbeciles at age 7 are still imbeciles now. My mates own businesses, work with the prosecutors, have been or are in universities. We've all experienced the same freedom.

Singers and actors usually have at least a 4 years theatre or film degree. Some are lawyers. People on the telly are educated. They aren't Jessica Simpson "is it fish or tuna?" They experienced the same freedom.

It's your responsibility to educate your child, not a third parties. But, because you work, or in general, have a life, you delegate that responsibility to a school. Therefore, you need to make sure that the school teaches your values. You cannot trust a third party to do that. It's the principal-agent problem. The agent will do what it is in its best interest. For example, a manager (agent) will take a task that will benefit a departmental and award him a bonus, as opposed to benefiting the company (principal).

More importantly, its the child's responsibility to educate himself.

reboundpoms

well, i would rather save my kids the pain of a headache induced by the sun, so, they will wear a hat.

this thread wasnt about 6yr olds it was about detentions for older kids.

a child is just that, they need to earn trust, it starts with letting them play out and ends with letting them have total freedom to go where ever once each step of trust has been reached.

why would i allow my 10 yr old the same freedom of my 13 yr ol. she would get herself into trouble and she hasn't proved to me that she has the social awareness of my 13 yr old, this will come in stages. it is the kids who are out all over the place, without thier parents knowing what they are doing and who they are doing it with that, in my opinion, are more likely to be rude and obnoxious. jmo.

we are not talking about shielding them from a cut or graze, we are talking about moulding them and giving them the boundries which society runs on. just becase you want to play your music at 3am doesnt mean you should. just because you can hang around on the street at 11pm doesnt mean you should.


i dont agree that a child should educate himself, if that was the case, why do we offer any advice or chastise our kids when they have done wrong. i agree that they need to learn by thier mistakes, but surely it should be the right level of mistake for the right age group. you cant expect a 6yr old to handle a situation the same as a 13 yr old. it just wouldnt be fair.

we might have to agree to disagree on this one

Sally Simpson

I'd like to know what percentage of 17 year olds could really be classed as responsible adults?

Your approach to education sounds very much like the Montessori schools.
I do have to wonder though, just how old you are & I doubt very much that you yet have children of your own!

virginiec

I suppose that is the difference between sixth form college and school.

I only got one saturday morning detention- pretty embaressing having to go to on the us in your school uniform with everyone knowing where you were going!

SpookyET

I have already mentioned that I have no children. I am 24. Nevertheless, people do try to jokingly push their children on me because they trust me. That said, ask yourselves whether you are speaking from experience or are speaking based on assumptions. Fallacies that you should not be making when it comes to your children's future. I speak from my experience and the experience of my mates.

I would argue that young adults in western Europe are far less responsible than those in eastern Europe because they have not been given responsibility. They are still treated as kids. Thus, they still see themselves as kids. Therefore, they act like kids. I have experienced this in United States. Push a 17 year old into the military where he is given responsibility. He will mature quickly.

I do not think that the soviet system is like Montessori. But, it may have similar results.

Here is how it works. It does not teach to the lowest common denominator. The child either performs, or he is left out. He has got 15-17 subjects a week. He takes French and English at the same time. He has biology, physics, and chemistry at the same time. He has geometry and algebra at the same time. He has literature, grammar, and Latin at the same time. He has many mores subjects which are taken at the same time as opposed to sequentially.

Examinations are mostly oral or at the blackboard. Paper exams are less common, but they do occur, and they are usually fill in the essay(s), not multiple choice (very rare, at least when I was there). Meaning, the child must know his material every day because he never knows when his time comes. The teacher may be annoyed with the child and examine him again the very next day. He may also be chosen randomly. There are many circumstances which force a child to be prepared.

He gets 3-4 grades per semester, which have the same weight, similar to university. Should he fail one of those 15-17 subjects, he has an opportunity to take an exam over the summer containing the entire material of that subject from the previous year. If he fails the exam, he repeats the entire year. So, he will take all the 15-17 subjects again. There is no time for detentions. There is no time for babysitting. Babysitting ends with kindergarten. A child is on his own beginning with first grade. There is no time for begging the child to do his homework. He performs, or he is left out.

He has an exit exam out of 4th grade, which he needs to pass to get into 5th grade. He has an exit exam out of 8th grade which he needs to pass or he repeats the grade, even if he has passing grades in all subjects. He has an entrance exam into high school, and each high school has its own entrance exam. So, he will need to take a few entrance exams to make sure he is not left out. There are n students per sit. They go from the highest grade down until all the sits are consumed. They also take into account the 8th grade exit exam and the average over the last 4 years. On a grading scale from 1 to 10, the lowest entrance grade may be 9.40 (94 on 0 to 100 scale) at the best high schools. If he fails, he has to stay a year at home and try again. He also has a horrible exit exam at the end of 12th grade of material he has learnt in the 4th previous years (usually 6 subjects comprising of both written and oral examination). If he fails, he has to take 12th grade again and try next year. Each university also has its own entrance exam.

Students who generally get (9.5 and above) are pushed even harder to take part in local, county, national, and international Olympics in various subjects. The most popular seems to be mathematics. It is optional, but in the process they advertise themselves to universities and the country to the world. Olympics usually start around 4th grade.

Furthermore, there is also social pressure to perform. Grades to these exams are public for all to see. One can go onto the ministry of education website, select the county, the city, the school, and see all grades for all children. The child will be ridiculed if has bad grades. He must perform, or he will be left out. There is also a social stigma if a child's parents are doctors, lawyers, professors and he performs badly. It reflects on their parenting. Since parents do not want to be ridiculed as well, they will push their children to perform. He must perform, or he will be left out, and he will take his parents' reputation down with him. This is why a 5th grade student in Romania is more mature than a 12th grader in United States.

The subjects are also very seriously taught. I have not learnt anything in high school in USA. 10th grade geometry in USA is 6th grade geometry in Romania. Math class was sleep class. The multiplication table is taught at the beginning of second grade. Equations in 3rd. Calculus is taught towards the end of 9th grade, not at university level. The child will have calculus at the 12th grade exit exam and entrance exam into university. The child educates himself. I have heard that northern European schools are similar (Norway, Sweden, etc.)

Teachers do not have an easier experience. They were pupils/students themselves and experienced the above. After getting their teaching degree, they have to take a national exam. 5 teachers fight for one sit. The better they do, the more likely to have a job at a good school. 4 out of 5 teachers will not have a job. Only the best make it. They also have to take exams every year or every few years after they get their job. They will be replaced if they do poorly.

There is a reason why companies from western Europe outsource to eastern Europe. It is not just cheap labour. It is a better product at a lower price. How can you compete with that? 50% of Microsoft speak Romanian.

An agent requires monitoring and incentive from the principal in order to perform. There is a fine balance between incentives and monitoring. Incentives can be in the form of bonuses; monitoring can be auditing. A bonus (incentive) makes you work a little harder. An audit/cctv (monitoring) makes you not take advantage of your employer. A cut in pay (punishment) will not make you work harder.

Detention is not a serious deterrent. Boredom is not a deterrent. It does not work. I had an opportunity to experience it as well as witness my fellow classmates experience it. I have experienced it once in USA for sleeping in class. I was "detained." Bravo! Give me more opportunity to sleep. Smart bastards. I received it for continuously sleeping in chemistry class in 10th grade high school in USA. It was (7th grade chemistry for me). She put me in detention and tried to give me a lecture that sleeping in the front row in front of the teacher is disrespectful. I told her that respect must be earned. It cannot be given for free. Until she earns my respect, until she can challenge me educationally, I will continue to snore in her class. That is exactly what I have continued to do. I have earned her respect. She shut up and gave me As on exams. It does not work on American students, let alone on someone who has experienced schooling on 3 continents. I do not permit anyone to thread on me. They were giving students a few days suspension for skipping school. Bravo, you smart bastards, give them more vacation. That is what they want.

Do not delegate your responsibility to teach your children to the agent (school) without monitoring and incentives. Most people send their children to school blindly. They assume that the school will perform. It does not perform without input and pressure. The agent always has his interest first and the principal's interest second. That is why incentives and monitoring are required.

Permit me to provide an example of situations in United States. Teachers do not want to lose their jobs. They are assessed by standardised tests. They teach towards those tests, which may or may not measure how well a student is educated. In the US, they do not. I have experienced it. All my high school teachers cared about was whether or not we could pass those poorly written, poorly executed, and poorly measuring tests.

Furthermore, not all students have to take those tests. The tests measure the school's performance. So, they have to randomly select students for testing. Guess what they did? Since the agents' jobs and funding was at stake, their selection was not random. They made sure the best students took those tests. So, the score did not reflect the actual school performance. It was skewed. Parents were blindly let to believe that it is a good school. The Bush "No Child Left Behind" is total rubbish (like most of his presidency).

In the same way, do not delegate responsibility to your children without monitoring and incentives. Make sure that you do deliver promises upon performance. If your promise means nothing. Your word means nothing. A child will not trust anything you say. Many fail in this regard. Furthermore, do not promise an 18 year old a car if he graduates from university and not deliver. It is a valid contract under common law. There is a promise (the car) and an acceptance by the child (agreement, first basic component of a contract). There is consideration, meaning legal value, the car for performance (second basic component of a contract). There is a legal capacity; the child is an adult, you are an adult, provided you are not both drunk (third basic component of a contract). There is legality; the subject matter of the contract is legal (fourth basic component). Meaning, the young adult can sue you for breach of contract. Laugh, but it does happen occasionally.

What do I mean by not blindly delegating your responsibility to educate a child to a school? Why do Romanian children get gold medals in mathematics at Olympics? Find out. They have a very serious curriculum. Most countries do not teach calculus that early and knowledge of calculus is not examined in international Olympics. So, the Olympics are very easy for them.

Does Germany have the highest density of best-selling authors? I do not know, but for this example, let us say that they do. If so, why do they have the highest density of best selling authors? Do they teach German to German children better or more efficiently than Britain teach English to English children? Find out.

Why are children in X country more mature than my country. Find out. Do not blindly assume that they cannot be trusted universally.

Look Romania, at Sweden, at Norway, at China, etc. Investigate. Study. Find out why they perform better. Take the best from everyone. Be proactive. Politicians do not reform until the country performs terribly. Then reforms take 5-10 years to have an effect. It may be too late for the current generation. Stay away from western schools, unless their are private.

Present your evidence to other parents. If they agree, petition the school together to adopt the better method. Sometimes, signatures are not enough. They have to be pushed. You may have to create a small riot. Take it to the streets.

The information you need is public. You can Google, or more likely, access it from an university library (there are databases to which only universities have access).


PS: Freedom with a very good school system works. Rules, regulations, talking down, censorship are rubbish, and do not work. I understand the idea behind them. You are trying to protect a child from the terrible world out there. You try to create an illusion that such a world does not exist until he is mature.

That idea is flawed. When he is mature, it is too late. He should be ready to face the world at age 18, but he is not because a) he lived in a cocoon or b) he is immature and engages in bad behaviour.

You are not protecting him. You are doing the exact opposite. You are making a child weak without immunity to the real world. We always crave what we do not have. He will be more likely to engage in drugs, whore around, and commit crimes. Prohibition does not work on both children and adults. Prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s in United States has resulted in Al Capone, the Mafia, and a massive crime wave. Abstinence has resulted in more teen births than previous years. The illegality of marijuana has created a massive crime wave, even though studies have proven that it's far healthier than cigarettes. That is why it is prescribed by medics to some. There is no crime wave where it is legal. No such problems where it was made legal. There is far less use where it is legal.

I have been exposed to the real world from a very young age in Romania. I tasted wine when I was a baby. I knew curse words at age 3. I tasted beer at age 4. I knew about sex at age 5-6. After the fall of the iron curtain, shops did not care. They sold alcohol and cigarettes to 4 year olds. Most lazy adults send their children to the shop to buy for them. In exchange, we got candy, sunflower seeds. We have all watched movies not meant for children. We have turned up OK.

By giving a child this kind of freedom, with guidance, you can observe whether or not he is capable of taking the right decisions. When he does, you will know that you can entrust him with responsibility.

By building immunity, I and my mates became capable to process products and information made for adults and have taken right decisions unlike the kids I see in United States. I do not whore around due to 8th grade STD education with uncensored pictures, not the rubbish cartoons they show in the states. My first official schools sponsored sex education was in 6th grade. STD education came later. I drink a beer or two once a month. I never get drunk. I always stop myself way before the limit. I do not smoke. I have never tried cigarettes even though I have purchased them for others since I was 4, but I have tried hookah since it smells good. I found the experience pointless. What's the point of ingesting smoke with the taste of apple when you can eat an apple?

Read news about UK in France and read news about France in UK. Bypass censorship and propaganda. Experience life yourself and allow your child to experience it himself.

Have an open mind. Do not assume. Get educated.

clarinsred

Responsibility requires respect! Respect for themselves, rules and boundaries. Having taught in a variety of schools with a diverse range of children I can value some of Spookyet’s opinions. However, to apply this idealist mythology to all children does not work. Experience has shown me that what works in one school does not work in another-local social values. Likewise what works with one child, may not work with another- individual family values. These two factors are the biggest influence upon the child and their behaviour. In my current class and school we do not need enforce any discipline procedures because the school, family and community work together as one, complementing and respecting each others role. However, I have previously worked in schools where Spookyet’s values have been implemented. Here I saw 6 year olds being taken away by police for trashing properties during the evenings. One of the 10 year olds had to have 2 adults with him at all times, just to stop him hitting the class teacher. Parents would threaten staff, just for suggesting the child is not meeting their current potential.
Sorry, but the “Now what should you be doing?” approach only works if the child, parents and community have respect for themselves and their education. However, parents, communities and schools must develop and nuture each child's accountability by for example, being given consequences for actions, be it detion, grounding or both!