Israel Palestinian

Old Nov 12th 2023, 11:00 am
  #1  
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Default Israel Palestinian

When I heard Hamas sent thousands of people over and under the wall to behead, murder, take hostage a tonme of innocent civilians I instantly thought WTF. Hamas know what's coming, why would they do that to their people.

And of course retaliation for that has happened and been brutal. Hamas use their own people as human shields and so forth and Israel want Hamas and always pay back ten fold.

And no doubt, Hamas and the Palestinians are desperate. They live crowded. in horrible conditions and no doubt for a minute, Israel controls the conditions.

it's a contuous cycle.

I can't help feel Israel would have been better off holding back. Admit the security screwed up. Never saw it coming and learn from the mistakes,, sort it out, and gather international support by taking a step back and looking from within.

I wonder if Hamas decided, let's take the ugly short road for long road wins.
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Old Nov 12th 2023, 12:23 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Beoz
When I heard Hamas sent thousands of people over and under the wall to behead, murder, take hostage a tonme of innocent civilians I instantly thought WTF. Hamas know what's coming, why would they do that to their people.

And of course retaliation for that has happened and been brutal. Hamas use their own people as human shields and so forth and Israel want Hamas and always pay back ten fold.

And no doubt, Hamas and the Palestinians are desperate. They live crowded. in horrible conditions and no doubt for a minute, Israel controls the conditions.

it's a contuous cycle.

I can't help feel Israel would have been better off holding back. Admit the security screwed up. Never saw it coming and learn from the mistakes,, sort it out, and gather international support by taking a step back and looking from within.

I wonder if Hamas decided, let's take the ugly short road for long road wins.
This assumes Israel didn't know what was happening and allowed to happen so they could claim justification for retaliation. They have had the whole area under constant watch for years and know exactly what's going on.
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Old Nov 12th 2023, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
This assumes Israel didn't know what was happening and allowed to happen so they could claim justification for retaliation. They have had the whole area under constant watch for years and know exactly what's going on.

I agree. I find it hard to believe the US and/or Israel had no knowledge of the attack.
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Old Nov 12th 2023, 6:16 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Beoz
....I wonder if Hamas decided, let's take the ugly short road for long road wins.
My initial guess based only on my known knowledge of politics in the Middle East was that the announcement in September of "normalization" of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia (the 800lb gorilla in ME politics), following similar announcements with the UAE, and at least one other Emirate (Bahrain? ) earlier in the year, was proof, in the grand game of ME politics, that Israel had won, and the Palestinians had lost. This caused the Palestians to lash out with the goal of setting the Middle East ablaze, and forcing the Saudis to side with the Palestinians. I have since read more informed opinions than mine saying that being exactly what the Palestians were hoping for, .... So far, at least, they have failed.

I think the area which the Palestians didn't understand the complexities of ME politics is the degree of division and rivaltry between the Sunni Saudis and the Shiite Iranians, which has increased steadily over the past 40 years. So with the Iranians being the major backers of the Palestinians, the Saudis are highly unlikely to wade into a conflict on the side of the Iranians, the very group that the Saudis have been trying to undermine and marginalize for decades.
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Old Nov 12th 2023, 6:37 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl
I agree. I find it hard to believe the US and/or Israel had no knowledge of the attack.
I find this very hard to believe. That either country would allow such an attack to continue is unconscionable.
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Old Nov 12th 2023, 10:44 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
This assumes Israel didn't know what was happening and allowed to happen so they could claim justification for retaliation. They have had the whole area under constant watch for years and know exactly what's going on.
Good point. The scale of the attack would have taken some decent planning and could not have gone under the radar of a decent intelligence organisation.
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Old Nov 13th 2023, 12:12 am
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Indeed. A lot of sound points raised here. I've heard it mentioned that Israel is doing America's work in ME . In a nut shell the end goal to weaken then replace Iranian regime. It does appear most odd, that a nation such as Israel , with one assumes is in possession of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment in the world did not at least have a notion that something was afoot.
It was in Hamas's interests of course to light the fuse as pointed out. Did Israel fall for the bait? Mass killings of Palestinian civilians, especially children, hospitals being damaged/destroyed is proving to be a propaganda victory. How long can the world accept such measures before reacting? Already France has taken the lead in Western nations in calling for a ceasefire. I think Spain may follow.

Revenge is seldom offers positive results and may well have the opposite impact on Israel than anticipated. Even to the extent of the unravelling of the nation of Israel , if Hamas most likely intent comes into being.
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Old Nov 13th 2023, 12:03 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by SanDiegogirl
I find this very hard to believe. That either country would allow such an attack to continue is unconscionable.
It is US elections in 12 months time. Biden is looking more and more unsuitable to lead the country. The Jewish lobby in the US is very powerful. It would help Biden enormously if he could say he had procured peace. Not to mention the lightening trip to Israel, a feather in his cap as the only serving president to visit a war zone.
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Old Nov 13th 2023, 12:05 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Beoz
When I heard Hamas sent thousands of people over and under the wall to behead, murder, take hostage a tonme of innocent civilians I instantly thought WTF. Hamas know what's coming, why would they do that to their people.

And of course retaliation for that has happened and been brutal. Hamas use their own people as human shields and so forth and Israel want Hamas and always pay back ten fold.

And no doubt, Hamas and the Palestinians are desperate. They live crowded. in horrible conditions and no doubt for a minute, Israel controls the conditions.

it's a contuous cycle.

I can't help feel Israel would have been better off holding back. Admit the security screwed up. Never saw it coming and learn from the mistakes,, sort it out, and gather international support by taking a step back and looking from within.

I wonder if Hamas decided, let's take the ugly short road for long road wins.
Israel knew exactly what was going to happen, they had been given two weeks warning by Egyptian intelligence and also they have agents in the higher echelons of Hamas, probably even helping to plan the incursion. It was all done to give them an excuse to conduct the genocide currently going on. The leaders of Hamas live in Saudi Arabia and are nowhere near what is going on. Security DIDN'T screw up, they sacrificed those taken hostage for their own purposes.
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Old Nov 13th 2023, 2:04 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by mikelincs
Israel knew exactly what was going to happen, they had been given two weeks warning by Egyptian intelligence and also they have agents in the higher echelons of Hamas, probably even helping to plan the incursion. It was all done to give them an excuse to conduct the genocide currently going on. The leaders of Hamas live in Saudi Arabia and are nowhere near what is going on. Security DIDN'T screw up, they sacrificed those taken hostage for their own purposes.
Spot on,Mike! Ethnic cleansing was always the purpose.
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Old Nov 13th 2023, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by mikelincs
Israel knew exactly what was going to happen, they had been given two weeks warning by Egyptian intelligence and also they have agents in the higher echelons of Hamas, probably even helping to plan the incursion. It was all done to give them an excuse to conduct the genocide currently going on. The leaders of Hamas live in Saudi Arabia and are nowhere near what is going on. Security DIDN'T screw up, they sacrificed those taken hostage for their own purposes.
Exactly. If Israel succeeds it will secure the future of Biden and Netanyahu for the next few years. Not to mention giving Israel more land. Most politicians IMO couldn’t give a damn about human lives, what they want is power and $$$$$. At least Netanyahu’s son is safe and well in sunny Miami.

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Old Nov 14th 2023, 2:21 am
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by mikelincs
Israel knew exactly what was going to happen, they had been given two weeks warning by Egyptian intelligence and also they have agents in the higher echelons of Hamas, probably even helping to plan the incursion. It was all done to give them an excuse to conduct the genocide currently going on. The leaders of Hamas live in Saudi Arabia and are nowhere near what is going on. Security DIDN'T screw up, they sacrificed those taken hostage for their own purposes.
On the above basis both sides orchestrated "Genocide" then. Hamas chose to massacre Israelis and at the same time knew actually what the repsonse on their own people would be in return.
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Old Nov 14th 2023, 4:38 am
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl
Exactly. If Israel succeeds it will secure the future of Biden and Netanyahu for the next few years. Not to mention giving Israel more land. Most politicians IMO couldn’t give a damn about human lives, what they want is power and $$$$$. At least Netanyahu’s son is safe and well in sunny Miami.
Its not clear to me what Hamas and their people stood to gain by attackinf Israel. Israel have always hit back 10 or 20 fold. Suggesting Israel was aware and almost sanctioned the hit makes sense, but why would Hamas agree to this. They will be wiped from existence and they surely know this.
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Old Nov 14th 2023, 8:23 am
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Beoz
Its not clear to me what Hamas and their people stood to gain by attackinf Israel. Israel have always hit back 10 or 20 fold. Suggesting Israel was aware and almost sanctioned the hit makes sense, but why would Hamas agree to this. They will be wiped from existence and they surely know this.
I didn’t say Hamas agreed.
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Old Nov 14th 2023, 10:34 am
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Default Re: Israel Palestinian

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl
I didn’t say Hamas agreed.
So who did those who attacked Israel work for? Not Hamas?
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