Have to agree with all of this. Though by the timing of the executions, it does feel like the Indonesians are determined to piss people off.

Withdrawing the ambassador? Yeah, not a powerful response. Actually, I would have thought that given the diplomatic exchanges that have taken place over the preceding months, the ambassador would have built up a lot of contacts etc and that this could be a very backwards move.

As Beoz has pointed out, a lot of this does hinge on the double standards of the Indonesian government, and the inherent corruption therein, however to my mind of thinking there was a clear decision made by the AFP to let them leave Australia and then grass them up to the Indonesian authorities. There must have been some consideration of the likely repercussions there. But heaven forbid that any criticism is ever leveled at the AFP.

These two are definitely not martyrs, and as with Corby, I suspect that many Australians will simply now fail to see what they did that lead them to this end. I mean, they were Australian for goodness sake! They must have been innocent!


S

Sorry but how did the focus turn from the Indonesian government to the Australian government. Oh thats right you have another agenda.

If they had been caught on Australian soil they would be in prison going through a rehabilitation process. Once rehabilitated returned to the community.

So where does the hypocrisy of the Australian government lie?

And why should Australia extend its resources to help the other countries when its first and foremost obligation is for its own citizens. Aren't other countries capable of lobbying for their own? It appears Indonesia were capable in lobbying for their Saudi maids. Indirectly Australia helped the other executed in this case anyway.

I thought it was the other way around. They were exiting Bali for Australia with the gear when the feds tipped off the Indonesians.

Agree they are not martyrs but they appeared to be rehabilitated and that in itself should be commended.

Sorry - you're right it bwas the other way around - but the fact remains that the decision was made to intercept them on Indonesian territory rather than on Australian. They weren't going to dispose of the stuff on the flight, so they could have easily been intercepted here.

As for rehabilitation, yes, that does appear to have been the case, but some countries don't recognise it, and their justice systems are more focused on revenge than on rehab and/or justice.

At the end of the day, through the AFP's action/inaction, this ended up as a domestic criminal issue within a sovereign state. Unfortunately that state has a lower threshold of value for human life, but as another poster pointed out, the risks were known, and nether of them appeared to be doing it out of desperation.

I see little more that Australia could have done. But, processes could be introduced to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I see some are calling for Australia to impose sanctions on Indonesia. I'm not sure if this would even be legal would it?


S

Yep their crime was not a minor affair. But nor were the crimes of many other Indonesians on death row and mysteriously removed from death row. Now where's that story of the Javanese meth lab king and paying the judges the right price.

I actually haven't got a big problem with a countries right have its own opinion on rehabilition. I have a problem with inconsistency, incompetencey, bribery and using death to suit your own political agenda.

I get the feeling that the AFP wanted the credit for catching them, and if they hit immigration it would have been customs that got the credit - thus...

And I also think a good part of the reason they didn't get clemency was the small matters of East Timor, bugging the indonesian president's phone, and Abbott's high handed "we're turning back the boats, stuff you" approach. No friends there.

Indonesia seems to have small man fever - trying to prove that they are important and 'of consequence' in the world - coupled with the domestic audience that says foreigners get away with things natives are killed/jailed for. Thus they end up doing things that make them look worse in the world, whilst trying to look strong and principled.

As to a response, the obvious measure is to stop direct flights to Bali - which would pretty much kill the place dead, and cost Indonesia real money. However, from the PoV of the Australian government, despite the crocodile tears, they really don't care that much.

I completely agree - the Indonesian approach here is wholly inconsistent, but my point is that there is very little that we can do about it, beyond taking steps to make sure that if these circumstances arise again, then they should be dealt with on home soil, rather than overseas.


S

The Aus govt are just going through the motions. Relations will be back to normal in a few months and they will continue to turn a blind eye. They need the assistance of Indonesia, particularly regarding people smugglers.

Everything they are doing at the moment is just posturing.

Indonesia = stands up to the perceived pressures from foreign governments, repels veiled threats and sanctions of the same, exerts its sovereign right to enforce its domestic laws and executes the guilty to shore up local voters' support for the next election.

Australia = exhausts all legal appeal venues, personal diplomatic calls to beg for clemency, recalls ambassador - ostensibly in protest, but in truth, perhaps also to shore up local voters' support for the next election.

Same brown stuff, different rusty bucket.

Speaking of double standards... The Australian government is happy to be part of hunt-and-kill operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and other places, where the victims have never been tried and found guilty of any crime - yet it objects to the Indonesian government's killing of foreigners who have broken one of the country's most defensible laws. This link is instructive.
The kill chain: Australia's drone war - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Now I am not enthusiastic about the death penalty, myself, but I can see why some nations have it on their books. (Of course Australia doesn't even have it on its books, although it is an accessory to plenty of quasi-judicial murders in the Middle East. Wow. That's a cracker of a double standard, there! SMH, as they say.)

Turn a blind eye to what? Best not to assume everyone has the same political agenda. Spell out what exactly you mean.

What a nice piece of kit. I want one.

You should post this on another thread where we can have a real geeky chat about drones.

Because on here it has nothing to do with the topic at hand despite your best attempts to massage it into one.

Indonesian justice system, corruption, executing foreigners. Whatever. Take your pick. Whatever it is the public/media are angry about they have to pay lip service to. They really don't give a shit they just have to be seen to do something.

Also see Gordons post above.

You seem to be the one focusing on the Aus govt now by the way.

Only because you and Gordon weren't capable of discussing Indonesia and you still haven't mentioned what Australia is hipocritical of. Last time I checked, the legal system was innocent until proven guilty and no sentence includes the death penalty. If you are trying to massage war into it then good for you.

Just so you know the opposition and the greens support what the government has done so far.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/29/labor-calls-strong-reaction-indonesia-execution-bali-nine-pair