MikeStanton

Please don't confuse views, beliefs and religious dogma with science. As Arkon correctly points out, it was the Church that prevented much progress and continues to do so (eg creationism, intelligent design).

Science never tried to prove the Earth is flat. Science as a method was not put on a sound footing until the brilliant Descartes appeared on the scene - until then it was mainly a bunch of untested hypotheses and unquestioned religious beliefs.

On homeopathy, I agree with the view that it is essentially a load of bull; it is the placebo effect by any other name. However, people should have the right to pick and choose the treatment they want.

Or should they?

A friend of my wife insisted on having only homeopathic treatment to cure a headache that wouldn't go away. And that person died of a brain tumour. Without doubt, proper timely intervention using "traditional" medicine would have saved her life.

Bella Donna

This was written by a colleague of mine: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817

I'm afraid I couldn't answer your questions as succinctly and precisely as you would like, but I've written to Lionel and asked if he can point me in the direction of some scientific articles to refer you to for explanation. My only answer is "resonance" and that doesn't help at all.

As Centurion says, not everything can be explained - and I'm not sure it needs to be. All that is important is that it works.

I watched "First Do No Harm" the other night for the first time, and that about summed up the argument for me. There may not be many double-blind, cross-over trials in favour of homoeopathy (although there certainly are "studies" as you recognise them that conclude that homoeopathy does work), but there is an awful lot of doubt and confusion over medical "studies" nowadays, which (as acknowledged in the BMJ not long ago) are sometimes "ghost"-written and are mostly funded by those with vested interests and whose conclusions often turn out to be inaccurate a few months later. How many drugs have been taken off the market over the past few years having been launched with the promise of great things, but causing more damage than good?

The bottom line is that many, many people throughout the world do have great respect for homoeopathy, and attest to its efficacy. Used with knowledge and understanding, it will do absolutely no harm at all. And it can do a huge amount of good. Surely that is what matters?

arkon

Without sounding like I'm arguing for arguments sake, I know first hand of two incidents where people I know who were very into homoeopathy and all things natural and when confronted with life threatening disease relied on homoeopathic remedies which needless to say had no effect on their cancers and both at the last minute sought proper medical assistance and cures to try and save them. One is now in remission and the other terminal. To say it has no negative effect is all well and good but when people rely on it to the exclusion of traditional medicine they put their lives at unnecessary risk.

JaneandJim

I started studying homeopathy a while ago and one of the books on my course list is "Why Homeopathy does not Cure Cancer". The course I'm still in the middle, Differential Diagnosis teaches how to recognise life threatening diseases so you can send your patient for appropriate allopathic treatment.

A genuine homeopath would never purport to be able to cure cancer or many other life threatening conditions. Unfortunately there are unscrupulous people in both fields (just look at all the people who enabled "Dr Death" to keep on butchering patients at Bundaberg), but at the end of the day, we are each responsible for our own health and if we choose to believe a con artist who says he can cure us, then that is our responsibility.

Jane

Wol

I've just spent (mis-spent?) the last hour trying to follow up the Rey experiment, but without success. Such a paradigm-turning result as he reported would, surely, have many further papers?

The two harms that homeopathy can do are (1) stop or delay people with serious disease getting treatment and (2) cause them to spend a lot of money. I suppose you can add (3) give hope where none is appropriate, but a placebo effect might negate that argument.

Like many weird pseudo-sciences, it is *just* possible that there is something in it: in my opinion something like a 30C possibility <g>. But since the overwhelming proportion of studies that have been carried out under anything approaching controlled conditions show no positive results it seems futile to spend time making rational arguments. So, with respect, I will file homeopathy under the same - rather large - heading as astrology, fortune telling and faith healing.

Paul and Chloe

Our perspective on medical treatment, be it traditional or alternative, is to do as much research as we can and try to keep an open mind. There are many things that do work that people can not explain via main stream science, the CIA have been spending decades trying to understand hypnotism but still do not know why or how it works. Western medicine is very much targeted are treating afflictions where as older Eastern medicine has a much more preventative outlook, I think there is room for them both.

The URL below is for an interesting site that is actually strongly supported by the traditional medicine profession and helps to expose the myths that the pharmaceutical has created and helped maintain in a lot of cases.

http://www.wddty.co.uk/cms/content.asp?pageid=about

I know from our perspective that homeopathic remedies have been very effective for treating our kids, even from when they were babies and the placebo effect does not come into play, however we are not averse for taking them to a GP or the hospital if we think it is appropriate....

Cheers

Paul

PS The homeopathic pratitioner we used to see in the UK was actually a former GP who used to combine the use of homeopathy with traditional medicine very effectively.

MikeStanton

There is a difference between open-mindedness and gullibility; you are showing strong leanings toward the latter. Homeopathy belongs to the religion line of "argument". It goes something like this:

"Science can't explain X, Y or Z. Therefore religion - or in this case homeopathy - must be real." Bollox! Even if there is a failing with the scientific method, it does not imply that alternative approaches have any validity. The only thing that is under constant scrutiny is the scientific method. Homeopathy, like astrology, is the realm of wannabelieve airheads. Whatever the failings of the scientific method it has served us extremely well for 300+ years. It is science that has delivered a greatly increased life expectancy. Whether or not pharmaceutical companies are unscrupulous - and some are - does not undermine the basic premise behind mainstream medicine; it's tested and shown to work (or not).

The link that you provided proves nothing. In fact, almost all the connections that are claimed use the word can. Talk about hedging bets. The point is, and here's the joke, the only way a connection can be proved/disproved is by using the scientific method.

Homeopathy has not passed any scientifically rigorous tests.

If homeopathy has been effective at treating your kids, I strongly recommend you put together all the so-called "evidence" and send it to the scientific community for proper evaluation.

Sure, who cares if homeopathy is used to treat non-threatening ailments - the gullible just waste their money. Still, that's the price of believing something will work.

BTW, if anybody's interested, have I got a bunch of homepathic cures for you.

I'll just sit back, count the cash and roll my eyes

Paul and Chloe

Actually I'm an aethist and a scientist by background....I just don't discount thinks I can't explain....

MikeStanton

Then you should be an agnostic, n'est pas?

Wol

Who was it said "Ordinary claims require proof: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" - or something like that?

There have been so many investigations into the supposed benefits of homepathy which have returned negative results that the whole concept of "proof" seems to be in question by the adherents. I for one would not dream of preventing by legislation anyone spending their money on it if it makes them feel any better (providing no claims are made by the sellers that are unsubstantiated) but the whole thing leaves me shaking my head!

Pollyana

I tried homeopathy once for eczema, the guy was recommended by friends, my GP said give it a go, cost a bit, several consultations later no change in the condition. Finally he said he had it cracked, gave me some different stuff.
I spent that night screaming in pure agony as all my joints seemed to swell up. My then partner phoned the guy who said he was leaving for South America and left us the number of his mate who could "probably help tomorrow".
My GP was horrified, I ended up with horrendous ulcers on my legs, swollen joints, and all the sympyoms of rheumatoid arthritis, from which I still suffer at times. Took 6 months to clear the resultant skin infections.

It may work for some people. Personally I would never go near it again.

Wol

Are you sure that was homeopathy, and noy herbal or somesuch?

A properly prepared homeopathic remedy would have zero "active" substance in so should have zero effect.....

There are some pretty extravagant claims made for many herbal remedies too, but it is indubiatbly true that there are all sorts of organic substances derived from plants that have quite profound effects on the body and so will often be helpful science is at last beginning to investigate in a controlled way what the effects are and I'm sure a lot of new drugs are going to come out of them.

Pollyana

No, it was proper homeopathy - can't remember what it was now but we rang the homeopathic hospital in Tunbridge Wells and they told me it was a sulphur based thing, I think - very hazy, think my mind has blotted it out now to be honest!! I remember looking it up in booksat the time.
What did most of the cure was Chinese herbal stuff - drinking some sort of bark concoction, then antibiotics finished the cure. The Chinese stuff tasted foul but was very efffective.

JaneandJim

Both quinine and aspirin were originally derived from plants and I think science has known about them for quite some time!

Jane
p.s. Pollyanna, sulphur is probably the most powerful homeopathic remedy and should be prescribed very cautiously. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.

Swaffy

Do you not mean 'might of saved her life'