ABCDiamond

Not something I would say to my child, but I have wondered that as well.

At school I was never much good, really bad grades, lots of "could do better" comments on reports.
Left before taking any exams.

I am pretty much self taught on most things I have done, and I have done reasonably well overall.

But, I think schooling is worth while. Even if only to keep her out of my way for 7 hours each day..........
School holidays just started... 3 weeks of this, and I am already on panadol after 2 days.........

MartinLuther

Maths teacher - given. (I was thinking of them as sort of mathematicians.)

I can see that engineers use maths but a lot of industries use standards and ratios (the aforementioned cheats) to reduce complex calculations to simple formula. For example: someone can use a 3-4-5 triangle without knowing anything about Pythagoras or squares.

Estimating is, as said before, useful and I believe this is a skill that has certainly been under-taught in the past. I can't comment on how it is taught nowadays.

I presume your mum-in-law does the books rather than runs a bookies. I can see quite a bit of maths being used by track-side bookies.

I'd be interested to know how much maths is actually used by someone who keeps books or is an accountant. Filling in and manipulating numbers - Yes, but actual maths? I know that when I'm doing my tax returns the only maths that comes in useful is a little bit of algebra (which could be reduced to set of useful formulas). I don't have to use any arithmetic as I can get Excel and calculators to do that. Obviously you should check and double check but that again is an area where estimation is useful.

MartinLuther

I'm thinking I should have started this debate at another time as I've got to go and watch Quantum of Solace now. I hope the title doesn't mean it's a film too small to see

BadgeIsBack

A bloke I know writes out all his equations in a little book on the train (tongue hanging out the side of his mouth) - they run to many paragraphs. He programs the weather forecast computers for the Met Bureau and for him, it's money for old rope.

As it happens, I've been doing a bit of calculus and Physics recently. For career progression etc. Finding that it all makes more sense than it did at school.

Quantum Physics = does your head in!! As someone said : If you understand it, then you probably have missed the point. No solace there..

hoveactually

Perhaps schools would be more relevant if if they were to teach by ability rather than age. Teachers may then be able to devote more of their time to teaching rather than crowd control?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ge-groups.html

MartinLuther

Yeah. I've wondered about a system that was more akin to adult education where kids subscribe to courses they want to do. I can see that some coaching/guidance may be required for those that don't want to do anything (which could be a sign of not knowing what to do).

I think if you follow what you are most interested in, most other stuff gets dragged in. For example, history leads to politics(say), leads to economics, leads to maths, leads to metal work ....oops, got carried away at the end.

fish.01

I have been wondering the same thing. Maybe it is because a software developer often gets the comment that, oh you must have been good at maths. And then you think about the actual maths you use. There is a lot of logic but very little other maths.

I have been thinking they would be better cutting a lot maths out of the current curriculum but making sure people left school with the ability to understand fractions. Can you look at 2 products and work out which one is the cheapest by converting them both to a common weight. Do you understand fractions. Making sure most people could understand these things would be a lot more productive than teaching us complicated mathematical concepts. Spend a lot of time teaching some pupils this and the one's that got it early could move on to some other useful thing. Don't leave a lot of people behind who do not even understand fractions.

Maybe a teacher can tell us why these idea's are unworkable, or already tried?

MartinLuther

I loved calculus. But I've never used it in life (work or otherwise).

There are easier ways of working out how much wine is left in the bottle.

MartinLuther

I think we're back to bookkeeping again

comet555

As a math teacher I can't agree more with that statement. When I was teaching, the first few days (or more if needed) was spent refreshing the basic skills. Mostly positive and negative numbers, basic operations and fractions. I was always astounded at how many students would be in a grade 10 or 11 class and be able to comfortably do fractions. So much depends on those basic skills and yet they seem to get left behind for the sake of pushing the group through the curriculum. Unfortunatley there are always one or two that continue to struggle with the basics long after the rest of the class is ready to move on. It's just not realistic to spend weeks learning the basics that should have already been covered very well in the past. There comes a point when the teacher really must move on so that the material gets covered in a timely fashion and more time is left for the new and more difficult things to be learnt. The students that are struggling with the basic should be getting extra help, but unfortunately they always seem to play catch up from that point on.

I think the focus might need to be shifted to more emphasis and mastering when the basics are learned. Possibly go a bit slower early on to make sure everything is sitting well before. Or perhaps ensure they students have the necessary skills BEFORE starting a new class. When I taught at a college (high school level courses) the students were all given a placement test so that the teachers would know what skills they had or didn't have. There were times that a student would come in having completed grade 11 math and wanting to take grade 12 but we would discover they were at a grade 9 level, so they'd have to take a few steps back in order to get where they wanted.

I think what's really needed is a basic course for "real world" math (as you mentioned above). Some places do in fact have this, although typically the only students who take it are the ones who don't need math for university and just need the credits to graduate. At the school I did my student teaching there was a course (grade 10 I think) and it taught the basics which also included units on balancing your cheque books and bank information, basic financing (credit card interest, mortgages, etc). It also covered things like comparing products to get the best price, and so on. It really was a great course and every student could have used it. Mind you a lot of those units are covered along the way even in the more advanced streams.

When I went to high school in Canada we had 3 different levels of math for each grade. There was basic, intermediate and advanced. Generally speaking if you needed math for University you were in the advanced stream, intermediate for colleges and basic for people who struggled with math or didn't need it. The basic courses generally focused more on the real world math that people actually use day to day. I'm not sure if they still have the three streams but I always thought it was a great idea, and certainly more useful than teaching all the students trig when they probably will never use it.

fish.01

Thank you for your detailed viewpoint. We all know that there is no people who have thought more about these questions than people in the profession.

From my education in Australia it sounds similar to the one you mention in Canada- basic, intermediate and advanced maths. My proposal is that we get rid of advanced maths altogether. School subjects should be the broadest set of skills that equip a student for further education.

I would argue that a lot of maths does not stack up like it used to in this regard - traditionally it may have been important - but english reasoning and computer skills are way more important now.

I think the emphasis on maths should be reduced (but the emphasis on logic should b increaseed)...

comet555

Why get rid of it altogether? It is necessary for those who are going onto engineering, mathematics, physics, etc. Advanced math should be available for those that actually need it. They really do need need advanced math for engineering believe it or not. I don't want an engineer building bridges or large structures without an understanding of the mathematics and why it all works. I don't want them to just punch in information into a computer without being able to do the calculations by hand if they have to. Computer programs are not perfect (and neither are we), so computers should be more of a tool used in helping along and checking things rather than the sole method of doing things.

For students who don't need advanced math then there should be another alternative with less emphasis on pure mathematics and more on real world applications. For many an intermediate math course would probalby be quite suitable. I think it's more the stigma attached to the whole thing, parents and students think all the smart kids take advanced math so they should be taking it even if they don't need it.

I had a friend in school that was pretty smart but not the greatest at math. She did all the math classes along with the rest of us and did manage to pass calculus after a lot of struggle. Not much point in it though because she wanted to go into early childhood, so really a bit silly. But she was basically pushed into doing all those advanced math course because she didn't want to be in the classed with the "stupid" kids (her words not mine).

This to some extent does exist in certain places, so things are starting to change. It just takes time for the general public to notice what's happening. Let's face it the curriculum most of us think of is what we took in high school. Well for me high school was only 10 years ago and the math curriculum has changed quite dramatically in some parts of Canada. If I was not a teacher I wouldn't have noticed the changes for another 10-15 years until my daughter was in school.

MartinLuther

I like the idea of the real world maths as a base. I think this should also be extended to other areas as well, like how to deal with government agencies, how to get jobs, how to do tax returns and possibly, a little controversial, how to get benefits (this could be combined with where the money comes from).

For our O'levels (16 yo exams) our school was trying out streaming in maths and I must say it worked a lot better than keeping classes together. There were even some social benefits as we got to work with kids that we would normally only meet at break times. In the advanced group we covered the curriculum requirements so quickly we had a whole term free so the teacher started teaching the next level of maths. Unfortunately I think they found it too hard to manage the timetable and they went back to class based teaching.

comet555

Here's an example of a grade 12 applied math course. This is a link to a project I found with a lot more real world application.

http://education.alberta.ca/media/93...er-project.pdf

fish.01

I didn't mean to imply that maths is not necessary for some professions. Just that, as you know, we have to prioritize the learning hours available - so is advanced maths used by enough professions (as a percentage) to justify the hours it is given (as a percentage). Why, if a lot of people don't use advanced maths in their jobs, should many people finish school not even understanding basic maths given all the hours devoted to it.