"Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Just thought I'd let you all know that AGW was a big hoax. :nod:

The fiddling with temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever - Telegraph

If you don't like or don't think the Telegraph is a reliable source, then please feel free to find the same story from other sources. :)

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Oh goody another global warming thread! :rofl:

I used to be a bit sceptical, I think scepticism is healthy but my current thinking is if 99% of the worlds scientists say it's happening then surely they can't all be wrong and that this is the biggest conspiracy the world has ever seen?

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Nope. Still a sceptic and this backs it up

MMGW is a hard-left plot to break the economies and social structures of the west so that they can impoverish and therefore, control it

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Well my primary degree was in natural sciences and I have my questions about the data for anthropogenic global warming (not actual global warming obv. as we are heading out of an ice age, denying this would be like denying that summer follows spring). However I'm no expert in climatewarmology or whatever and will leave it to experts to sort out who are interested in this area.

Happy to invest in alternative energy however.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

And so are these people it would seem...


S

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I think the Rockefellers are as well.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Fatuous Prick

The 'is it/isn't it' questions were over at least two decades ago. Anyone still trying to debate them now is either a moron (eg politician), or a liar for money (eg politician).

Christopher Brooker has the smell of both.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

here's one of the official thermometers, how accurate can it be ?

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

OK, you get one debunking, then you have to do your own research, rather than just parroting the b*llsh*t :

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/u...e-etal2010.pdf

It's almost as if climate scientists were, I don't know, professionals?

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

The global warming debate (is it, isn't it? is it us, isn't it us?) always misses the most important point - fossil fuels are a finite resource. We need to develop alternative energy sources before they run out or we'll living out Mad Max for real. Since nuclear fission has a tendency to gone spectacularly wrong on a regular basis and fusion is still a concept that means renewables.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

It's actually primarily about whether it is a hoax or not, and not global warming per se.

If the temp figures have been fudged, this should be able to be verified by others around the world and not just the guy who wrote the article in the link. Time will tell.

At school (1970s) I was taught that another ice age was coming and that "most scientists" concur. If they all concurred then about the pending ice age, but now all concur about global warming, then that doesn't say a lot for scientists in general.

I will maintain my scepticism. :nod:

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Journal

:confused:

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I only had my teacher and Time magazine to go on in those days and in darkest Africa with no Internet.

But, read this:

There has been an intense debate among leading scientists, government agencies and publications over whether the bigger threat is global warming or a new ice age. As we’ve previously noted, top researchers have feared an ice age – off and on – for more than 100 years. (This post does not weigh in one way or the other. It merely presents a historical record.)

Global Warming or The “New Ice Age”? Fear of the “Big Freeze” | Global Research

No doubt there are millions of other articles showing the opposite. So just who do we believe?

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Do you promise? I've always wanted a Falcon XB with a huge supercharger :fingerscrossed:.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

As I said above, Christopher Brooker is a nutter and fraudster of the highest order. He's said, over the years, not only that climate change isn't happening, but also that:

• passive smoking has "little or no effect on health at all"
• there is "not a scrap of firm scientific evidence" to justify statements that BSE can be transmitted to humans from cows
• white asbestos "poses no measurable risk to health"

He pipes up every so often, usually when he has a book to sell, with the same old b*ll*cks - which then gets sat on. As you can see, he has a 'big business is good and shouldn't be regulated' slant to his hobby horses - making it likely that money is involved somewhere along the line.

Please, the debate on if AGW is happening ended decades ago - time has told and the evidence is overwhelming. The only debate today is if scum like Brooker have meant we are already past the practical point of no return, or if there is still hope.

I think most scientists are now, quietly, tending towards the understanding that the pace of change now necessary to avoid runaway is too great for people to actually do it. Failure to act two decades back means we'd now be looking at a pace of change that couldn't be delivered short of a mass disaster - and that the tipping point has practically passed, if not physically. Retreat and adaptation are now the interest areas - along with the climate of the earth in the past when temps were 6C higher than today.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Mel Gibson was extremely hot back then as well. Wouldn't be much of a hardship....

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

The problem with nuclear power is that the technology seems to be largely stuck in the '50s with some strange binding to PWR technology. Even the latest nuclear power station systems being installed in France are still PWRs.

There are significantly better designs available now - such as integral fast reactors and liquid sodium reactors which are so efficient that they can burn the waste from existing PWRs meaning that only a small fraction of the long term waste we currently produce will ever need to be stored.

these newer designs are also significantly safer, because they don't require massive water pressures to cool the reactor - this was the problem at Fukishima - as soon as power was lost to the cooling system, the pressure dropped and the reactor was no longer cooled. A liquid sodium reactor would have self cooled owing to the negative reactivity coefficient, and the residual heat would have kept the liquid metal coolant working through convection.

It's a huge shame that there is no leadership in this issue, though the UK are considering the PRISM reactors developed by GE for Sellafield. This could be a huge boost to getting greater deployment of fast reactor technology.


S

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

:lol: Great you can keep Mel and I'll keep the car. Serendipity.
You can't just bring an informed, rational views to a nuclear debate.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

True - particularly in Australia. It's usually an emotive issue, but generally one fueled by ignorance and fear than actual facts...


S

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Garry. I can't tell if you are working at being unpleasant or it's your basic nature. You would be more persuasive if you were just a bit less abusive. The fact that your opinion of AGW is different from Christopher Booker's doesn't of itself make him "scum". Settle down, boy!

By the way, I wonder if you do in fact mean Chris Booker of the Daily Telegraph, or Chris Brooker, an invention of your very own. If the former, then you have a credibility problem caused by carelessness, at the very least. Are you equally careless with your AGW facts?

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Nope. I lost patience with those climate denier scum many years ago. Frankly, when you consider that they will be responsible for millions of deaths, I think I'm been more that nice to the genocidal vermin.

This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of a certain sector of society wilfully ignoring the evidence and promoting a course of action that makes EVERYONE suffer, and millions die. The same lies, peddled year after year, even when it's demonstrated that the deniers are wrong and are faking up their 'evidence'. It's, not to put too fine a word on it, evil.

<snipped an unnecessary comment>

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Isn't that how all of us express our views of the world, as an opinion? I mean Gina Rinehart has opinions on many, many...many things really. It's a persons grasp of a subject that weights their opinion, not if they choose to express it.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I believe we are contributing to warming - we certainly contributed to CO2 - which is itself a contribution to warming...

There's also a lot of debate about how we are measuring the data.
There is a debate going on in the BOM about how they interpret - and correct data going back years - and allowing for past errors.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

The point that gets me exercised is that there are far too many people spewing complete b*llsh*t on this - like the "there a lot of debate" canard above.

Nope, there's not any serious debate - as I say the "is it" question got nailed down decades ago. We know the Titanic is going down, the questioning now is is it 1.5 or 2.5 hours before it sinks, and what do you do then. Anyone still spewing the 'debate' view is either massively ill informed, or actively rejecting reality for delusion. If they really had 'new' science, well there's a nobel prize and a pair of kocks prepared to shower money on them - it NEVER happens. They just repeat bull that's been answered decades in the past.

If this were about "is Kim Kardashian a talentless whore, or a smart whore on the make" it wouldn't matter - it's ephemera. However, failure to take serious action on this means we go over the tipping point (somewhere between 1.5C and 2.5C) and so kicks off feedback effects that push natural processes to 'switch' the climate mode into a high CO2/greenhouse mode (prob 6C+). And that wouldn't switch back for centuries to millennia, no matter matter what. The end result of that is not the tens of millions of deaths we have already guaranteed by our failure to act before, but hundreds of millions to billions of deaths.

Climate deniers are literally part of the biggest potential genocide ever.

Given that, I don't give any quarter with such people. If it's ignorance they need to get educated, and if it's delusion, they to get locked out of the decision making process. Either way they should be viewed with scorn and contempt.

It's pretty clear being nicey nicey hasn't worked.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I was chatting to the manager of a North Brisbane resort village recently and they told me that Energex won't allow them to install any more solar because they don't make enough money from them.

I thought the idea was to encourage the use of solar so brand new power plants wouldn't be necessary.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Executive summary: It's rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic ;).

Full: The cost of electric distribution services are fixed, this means as you approach "grid parity" (where as much electricity is being generated as used) large parts of the grid are not used at capacity which makes them an underperforming asset.

Electrical distribution companies have been operating in a highly regulated market as a middle man between generators and consumers with returns effectively guaranteed. In many countries however demand has stagnated or been reduced as efficiency of use improves so distribution companies are trying to defend their traditional business model by impeding people who would sell electricity back to the grid in any volume.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I'm a sceptic re MMGW as well, but cant see the leftist plot side of things... Surely there is more money to be made from installing and constantly upgrading green energy world wide than purely maintaining and increasing current infrastructure ?


Plus Here comes Tesla...

This new Tesla battery will power your home, and maybe the electric grid too - The Washington Post

Thats just the beginning of the 2nd generation of home storage.... It's bound to improve at a quantam level like all electrical solutions.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

I agree with you entirely. I did some reading up on this very subject a little while ago and it's baffling why countries like the UK and France are still installing Gen II PWRs when Gen III LWRs are available. I can only presume it's a knock-on effect from the PWR reactors that power our nuclear submarines. However, as you say, it's the Gen IV reactors that close the nuclear fuel cycle like PRISM which are most interesting.

If the UK planned for a future energy mix of PRISM reactors together with a variety of renewable sources then we could decommission our coal-fired power stations and reduce our need for natural gas as the North Sea reserves start to run out. The speed with which Tesla has developed and matured their electric car design has shown that our dependence on oil could also be hugely reduced within a generation.

As an aside I though this was interesting: U.K. National Grid status

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

https://southernbeale.files.wordpres...n-foil-hat.jpg

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get me!

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

The sheeple have spoken

http://www.sire.co.uk/assets/uploads...n-the-sand.jpg

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

All the current 'green' energy solutions are local and cannot provide for industrial level society base-load. For that you need nukes, coal, maybe gas, big hydro

Nearly all current renewable operations require heavy subsidisation from the taxpayer or consumer - Germany's pathetic energy policy for instance requires subsidies that are so onerous that their consumers pay more in subsidies for their electricity than American consumers pay in total - that's socialism

Anyone should be allowed to build any power system that they want - as long as they don't take one cent of taxpayers or consumers money. The exception to this is nuclear as this fantastic base-load sources requires massive cost and their are national security implications

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Just to point out that unsubsidised solar is now cost competitive with coal - and that coal & gas are subsidised to the tune of $4bn every year via spending and tax breaks.

Australian coal, oil and gas companies receive $4b in subsidies: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Ha! See post #5!

This is a great step though.


S

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

.

What I find really interesting is the psychology of the denial faction.

I can understand - obviously not agree with - the fossil fuel industries putting hundreds of millions into faux institutions that employ scientists to rubbish the work of the vast majority of *relevant* scientists, and to plant the seeds of doubt. (Read Oreske's book on how the tobacco industry realised it couldn't deny the evidence on smoking and diseases, so spent millions just planting doubt about science, same with acid rain, same with the ozone depletion and same with CO2. Several of the tame scientists were involved with all these doubt-placing campaigns.)

I can understand the average Joe being unable to follow the physics, maths, statistics, chemistry, etc etc - climatology is probably the most complex science of all - but what I cannot comprehend is the sheer vitriol and ad hominen attacks that come from such a large number of them, and the way they invariably change the subject whenever any of their propositions are shown to be false.

Booker is one of those that consistently picks up incorrect (to put it mildly) information from other non-scientists and promotes it to his coterie.

As for the "falsifying" of temperature measurements, a couple of minutes on google will show his lack of understanding.

Temperature measurements go back almost to the industrial revolution, and until recently were never intended to be used for anything but contemporary forecasting. Climatology requires extremely precise measurements over long periods, since trends are what is being investigated. Over decades instruments are changed, locations are moved, urban areas encroach, methods of measurement alter and even the time of day of readings are moved. Any science that ignored all this would be junk. So various methods are used to put all the decades of readings into the same framework. In the case of Patagonia (St Christopher's chosen "fraud" case) there were several abrupt changes in the averages - and these coincided, when researched, with changes in instrumentation and methodology of the Patagonian met office. All sorts of statistical methods, and comparisons with other local sites were used to bring the measurements into a common framework. In some cases the resulting trends were downwards (not mentioned by St Christopher) and in many cases upwards.

Over the years he has written large numbers of junk science articles: each and every one is shown to be fabrication or mistaken but no matter - the debunking is ignored and he just moves on to the next one.

He constantly bangs on about the "global conspiracy", but never comes up with even a single morsel of evidence, nor explains how thousands of scientists in every country working in literally dozens of specialisms, and every single scientific institution such as the RS, could organise - and keep secret - a fraudulent conspiracy through half a century.

Now THAT would be a scoop!

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Indeed. Missed that one post. ;)

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Thanks for the Booker link: it sums the man (robot?) up perfectly!

I hadn't seen it - I don't read the grauniad - but the DT (which I do read online) is getting more and more like a poor copy of the News of the World/Sun by the day and St Christopher is like a Page Three to his accolytes.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Ever since the Barclay brothers bought it out The Daily Telegraph has been on a long decline from right-leaning quality broadsheet to The Daily Mail for people who send their children to a private school.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

From memory if the web editions are to base it on, all the broadsheet papers in the UK have gone slightly tabloid - it's all Top 10 reasons to go to Glynebourne, Where to get Strawberries at Wimbledon etc...it started about 10 years ago when the papers did actually go tabloid of course...in size.

The Daily Mail has gone from a very curious paper to Hello magazine (online anyhow).

Wol, when I was a child we got the Times - as in my parent's view, it had letters from people who they thought actually had some influence.
We did occasionally get the Telegraph, and actually, I didn't mind it. I read it online for years as it was free.

Re: "Fiddling temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever"
 

Calm down - there is debate about measurement of data right now at the BoM. Some people will tell you the methods they used are fine, others will disagree. If people start changing data it makes things interesting. I didn't say anyone was denying climate change.