EU Referendum
 

Did anyone else know that if you live in Australia you can still vote in the upcoming EU Referendum? Apparently if you were registered to vote in the UK at anytime in the last 15 years then you can get a vote.

Here's the link https://www.gov.uk/government/world-...-eu-referendum

I consider myself an Australian now but nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing my old country get itself out of the undemocratic, disorganised mess that is the EU.

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:goodpost:

Couldn't have said it better myself! :britflag:

Thanks very much for sharing :thumbsup:

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There is not a single logical reason to leave the EU - the "leave" campaign has no merit to it. In a legal sense it would be much easier and cause less paperwork if the UK were to vote differently: whether people want England to stay in the UK. Because countries like Scotland want to be part of the EU and will not be pushed out against their will.

MOST of British export goes to the EU. Not to the US or China.

What the gov't and Farage idolisers keep dishing out on immigration is just scaremongering and lies, blatantly manipulating public opinion.

How many people know just the numbers and not the propaganda? The MAJORITY of immigration every single year is from OUTSIDE the EU.

And yet the gov't and the idiot horde spin it around as if the EU is to blame, lol. Guess who they are now convincing to vote "leave?" Middle Easterners, Pakistanis, Indians, etc.

Guess which migrants are the most hard-working and not only contribute to the economy, but also put more into the "system" than they take out? EEA migrants:
£15bn from the older/richer EU nations
£4.96bn from newer countries which joined in 2004

Guess which migrants take more out of the system than they put it? Non-EEA migrants.

New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says - BBC News
The immigration “windfall” for the Treasury - BBC News

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On the topic of migrants putting more into the system than they take out - if a migrant wasn't doing the job wouldn't someone already resident be doing it? And if a UK resident take the job wouldn't that be of more benefit to the economy rather than have 2 users of the system and only one tax contributor?

(not against skilled migration though just don't understand that argument)

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Most/many of the migrants are doing jobs that UK citizens just will not do, they feel it is beneath them to do the lower paid, manual, dirty jobs when they can live on benefits. This was shown in a TV programme a few years ago when the BCBC persuaded a company that harvested vegetables in Norfolk, to employ something like 8 long term unemployed Brits who stated they wanted to get back into work. The work was usually done by migrants but he did employ tem. One never even turned up, and of the rest I believe tah one lasted a day, but by the end of the week all but one had packed it in and gone back to the dole.

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Fair point but will those in lower paid jobs be net contributors?

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Yes because they will pay NI, and pay VAT on things they buy in shops, duty and VAT on cigarettes and beer,

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It is estimated by 2050 the EU will account for only five percent of UK exports and in Worldwide terms will be insignificant.
Even Cameron admitted that a few month back when he set of on his world tour to boost UK exports.

Unlike with our EU trade which has a big deficit our worldwide trade is in profit.

Most of the scaremongering I have seen has come from the Remain crowd.
Whatever happened to the UK pioneering spirit ?

We have no way of knowing which of the EU immigrants are genuine and which have come to milk the system or live on the proceeds of crime and we have no option but to let them all in regardless of their motives.

Because of current EU rules we are having to refuse entry to skilled professional workers from outside the EU who would be a great asset to our economy.

I note you quote from BBC sites, so I wonder if you are aware that the BBC is in receipt of funding from the EU ?
Funding which they tried everything possible to hide, until the information had to be finally released under the freedom of information act.

Do you know that the EU is spending a billion of taxpayers money to promote itself or in effect brainwash school kids and college students in favour of a wasteful, inefficient,corrupt,undemocratic,uncompetitive by its own admission, shambles of an organisation which is hellbent on a Federal Europe that most do not want, protection of the euro at whatever cost and continuation of Schengen which at the moment is a dead duck in the water.

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I'm actually coming round to the idea that this whole in-out-shake it all about stuff is a red herring.

The chief issue isn't if you are part of a trading block with delusions of grandeur, but if you have governance that has a clue what it's doing and where it's going. If you do then you can succeed no matter what, if you don't then you are screwed no matter what.

And as you look around the world, good, competent, governance, and in particular vision, seems to be in very short supply.

So rather than concentrating on secondary issues like the EU, the main question has to be how to get adults in charge.

Point 1 : The EU isn't good governance.
There general behaviour of pushing 'ever closer union' so that the brussels bureaucrats get more power - coupled with their inability to grasp the lesson of greece and back off on failure means it becomes a when, not an if, of it collapsing. In addition, because there are so many competing forces acting on such a rigid and badly constructed ship - it's hard to get good governance in future and changes will be slow, late, and probably wrong.

Point 2 : The Tories aren't good governance.
Pretty obviously, they don't have a clue. I've mentioned before that right wingers are destroyers, not creators. Their general approach is to take their hands off the wheel, and go and loot the cargo. The longer they are in charge, the less in charge they are. Any vision they have is limited, local, and personal. They aren't in it for anyone but themselves and wouldn't know a vision if it slapped them in the face.

Point 3 : Labour aren't good governance.
There are some big strategic issues that need addressing (globalisation, balanced budgets, etc.) and they don't appear to have the understanding to address. They also have a tendency to put money into various social programmes without really addressing the big picture of why. They are also absent of vision - the closest they came was "balanced budget over the economic cycle" which went titsup because they didn't realise the economists didn't have a clue and that the system was dynamic and global, not some kind of local cycle.

So, where does that leave you?

Well, you want less of all of the above, so any decision that gets you that is good. Either that means jettisoning the EU, or acting such that the two sets of bozos cancel each other out. Given that Labour can't perform that role in the foreseeable, that suggests the second option is best - make them equal and opposite so neither can do as much damage as they would like.

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Good points you make. In the EU we have no control of immigration from within it and meanwhile the net gain of people per year is over a quarter of a million people per year. This annual increase is completely unsustainable.

The scaremongerers in this thread who want to stay in the EU are carping on about economic factors alone - as if it's all about money. But what about the social impacts of the EU? What about the quality of life of those communities that have had to absorb all these millions of unplanned arrivals? In that regard, the now over-crowded UK is in massive deficit territory.

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Given the 2012 legislation regarding non-EEA migrants, how do you work out that they 'take more out of the system'?

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The figures were to 2011 - I think they are both old reports SoS

But the answer may be in other services provided - schooling, health, social services, etc (not that I have any idea what the 2012 legislation means but I assume it would be access to benefits)

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Thanks Dave. I didn't know that either.

I voted against Common Market membership in 1975 and shall do the same this time.

I still think that 1975 referendum was a fudge.

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Ta Sparkles. I can only comment on the 2012 legislation as it applies to spouse visas, as this is the one I had to apply for to enable Scouse and I to live in the UK.

In order to meet the financial requirements of this visa, we had to show that we'd had 62,500 pounds in an account that we had immediate access to, and the funds had to have been at that level for at least the previous 6 months. That got me a visa which lasts for two and a half years.

After that time, I need to show that I meet the same financial requirements again, which will give me another visa for two and a half years.

After that time, I can apply for indefinite leave to remain, and I again need to demonstrate that I meet the financial requirements.

For that 5 years, I am not permitted to receive any benefits (which I completely agree with), and Scouse also can't receive benefits as the funds we need to meet the financial requirements means we have too much money in the bank.

At the moment, the cost of my visas over the 5 years will be around 4,000 pounds, although the costs rise annually.

All non-EEA spouse visa holders (including Australians) are now required to pay a 200 pound per year health surcharge.

Scouse and I pay the full rate of Council tax. Like everyone else, we pay VAT on every purchase we make, from utilities to clothing to food.

Apart from buying our home here in the UK for cash, we've also spent a fair bit on renovations in the past couple of months, so all together to date we've spent over 250,000 pounds on the house purchase (with associated taxes and solicitor fees), employing local tradies to carry out work, buying materials etc. Not finished by a long shot (unfortunately!).

I've broken my toe, so I have used the NHS. No kids, so no schooling.

The only reason I've written all that is to explain my puzzlement at astera's statement that non-EEA migrants, such as myself, 'take more out of the system'.

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Usual load of bollocks about lazy Brits. If you can't recruit locals for manual work it's because the pay on offer is shite.

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I'm inclined to agree with this, and it's certainly no more of a generalisation than 'migrants do it because brits are lazy' If I'm to do back breaking, mind numbing work, I want more than sub minimum wage for it because I come from a civilized society. Slave labour isn't a British thing anyway, ....is it??

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Me too.

It's the same in Australia and I'm sure a host of other countries.
Exploitation of immigrants, backpackers, temp visa holders et al.

Not all of them of course but there is always a sizeable contingent that is prone to "abuse".

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Seriously, just look at the numbers and you'll laugh. Down from being our major export market to just 5%? Just too funny... Only way this could happen is if OUR economy caves in and we have nothing to export. And how gullible do people have to be to believe in such nonsense, especially labelled as 2050, lol...

Some people still want to lead the way, but unfortunately for some it's easier to take the cowardly approach of caving in, so protectionism drives out progress, and we then try to desperately cling on to what we have instead of striving for more. Especially given the fantastic conditions of a whole, open European market ripe for the taking, and the strength of the EU block to negotiate trade treaties with the rest of the world as a whole rather than each dinky, little country trying to roar like a lion when countries like China would then see them rather as squealing like a mouse.

The only forces that want a weak, divided EU, and nations like the UK splitting from it, are countries like China and Russia. That's why the Russians are pumping large amounts of money to fund political parties that support their agenda in weakening Europe as a whole.

And likewise us Poms are also EU immigrants to various other nations like Spain where we are given the benefit of the doubt and free to exercise our rights as EU citizens as long as we do not break the law.

Funny you should mention milking the system as the MAJORITY of migration to the UK is from OUTSIDE the EU (yes, same pattern every single year). So apparently we should be 100% in control of that, and yet they are the ones MILKING the system whereas UE citizens are the ones adding money to our system and contributing to the economy. :)

Tell you what, stop blaming the EU and following the propaganda being dished out against our place in the UE until we make sure that non-EEA migrants, who we can control 100%:

A) stop being the majority of all migrants to the UK
B) stop being a parasite on the system and start contributing. And even then, although it might never happen according to some, let's wait until they start contributing more than our European neighbours that are part of the UK economy.

ONLY then do I think you have any credible right to even use the term "migration" and the "UE" in any negative form, given that the root of the problem is elsewhere and has nothing to do with the EU.

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:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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I wonder what the life span of a parasite is? Wouldn't want to die waiting for a response.

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I see Russia is ramping up its activities in Syria lately: Bombing the place so that more hundreds of thousands of refugees head for the EU.

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Aren't you barking up the wrong tree here? :)

If...

A) the majority of immigration is from outside the EU

-and-

B) those migrating from outside the EU take more out of the system than they put in (in contrast to EEA migrants who are net contributors and add money to the treasury)

... then yapping at the EU seems very convenient for the gov't, so that they can deflect the blame instead of being asked why they're letting even greater numbers in from outside the EU... even though they should be 100% in control? Of course they wouldn't want you asking them that, so they'll do everything to make you bark at the EU instead. :)

Let's not forget that the system works both ways too. As UK nationals we get to travel freely around Europe, take on job positions across the continent, go to uni and pay local rates, etc. Strip us Brits of European rights and we'll be like the Albanians of Europe, with no rights anywhere, and travelling to Spain we'll be standing in line with thousands of Moroccan tomato pickers waiting to enter the country.

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The UK is over populated directly attributable to Federal EU policies.

I voted against membership in 1975.
The majority voted in favour of membership.

However the referendum was about membership of a Common Market, not a Federal union which it is well on the way to becoming.

Big difference voting for trading partners or rulers.

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No, it's mainly because those jobs are dirty, often outdoors and they may have to work when it's cold and wet. They'd much rather the state paid for them to sit at home moaning, many of the claims they can't do the job because thye have a 'bad back' and can't bend. No way of proving that, so they use it as an excuse. The benefit people can't check up on everyone, but there have been numerous programmes about people defrauding the system, claiming they have a bad back, can't lift, can't bend, can't walk any distance but are then filmed running marathons, working for cash on a building site.

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The vast majority of migrants entering the UK each and every year are from OUTSIDE the EU. Plain fact, pure and simple. The UK has 100% control over this, does it not?

Have you ever wondered why you are so focused on the minority? Especially since the minority happen to be the most beneficial people entering the country in terms of contributing to the "system" and the economy.

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In my opinion, only a small minority are benefit cheats - they become the focus of the tabloid press in the same way as some migrants do.

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Most migrants are lying, cheating, misogynistic, bludging rapist scum, well you started it :)

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:lol:

I did wonder if migrants in Australia are also 'parasites'.

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Sparkles, you asked a while ago why people do/don't post. I think this thread's a good example of both.

Some post to vent their spleen in a 'safe' forum - bandying about terms such as 'parasite', 'bludger' etc in public would probably end badly for them.

Some don't post because they're tired of seeing the same old shite.

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Or you can just watch

How do you get the popcorn icon on the mobile site?

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Your immigration figures are not supported by the ONS (Office of National Statistics) data.

On 27 Aug 2015 the ONS issued population data up to Dec 2014 which showed the number of non UK nationals residing in the UK:-

2.92m - EU nationals

2.406m - Non EU nationals

There was a significant increase of non UK nationals in 2013 and that must have been by EU nationals as it states for the second year in a row EU nationals outnumbered non EU nationals which has not happened since 2004.

The most common non UK national group is Polish.

The UK has no control on the largest group coming in from the EU. It is simplistic to say they are contributors. At whose expense?

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we are, we've taken to living like intestinal worms inside Gina Reinhart, she does eat some shite I tell ya

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I know - it would be nice if there was more variety but some of the nicer threads seem to die off pretty quick which makes it hard to maintain a balance :(

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They are supported by the ONS. You are simply looking at something else perhaps, not at how many people are MIGRATING here each year.

Here is your November 2015 ONS report: Migration Statistics Quarterly Report, November 2015 - ONS

Official net migration statistics by the ONS:

EU migration: 180,000
Non-EU migration: 201,000

So for people - who like British nationals - can live and work freely across the UE, 180k more arrived. And from outside the EU, where 100% control lies in the hands of the gov't... 201k more were allowed in.

Are you still going to let the gov't and special interest groups financed by god knows whom point your attention where they want to?

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Their own in budgetary terms. By net contributors it is meant that they (EU nationals of countries which joined in 2004) added £4.96bn more to the treasury than they took out.

"The analysis included migrants' share of all public services costs, covering those that increase when the population increases, such as health and education, and those that stay fixed, such as the armed forces and defence."

"If the fixed costs are excluded, the net benefit of immigration from these countries would more than double to £10.5bn."

Source: New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says - BBC News

I have never spliced the data to show just the data on any particular EU country, but since you mentioned Poland you should be pleased to see some reassuring data that the laws of economics work and that nobody is "playing the game" so to speak:

Proportion of working age population in employment on census day (per cent):

UK born 69
Non-UK born 63.2
EU born 73
Non-EU born 59

Country of origin:

Poland 81.2
South Africa 78
Germany 70.6
Ireland 68.9
USA 66.8
India 65.4
Jamaica 62.4
Nigeria 58.6
Pakistan 46
Bangladesh 44.1
China 38.1

Source: Polish migrants almost 20pc more likely to work than Britons - Telegraph

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It still seems to conflict between reports issued by the same ONS which I suppose is not surprising as statistics are bent all the time.

However, if the UK was a non EU member it would not have had to accept the large influx of Eastern Europeans in recent times so the UK nationals employment rate would be much higher.

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I do not think there is any conflicting data at all.

I posted a direct link to the ONS data - if you find any data there about net migration from the EU being higher in any year, just post the source.

The UK has admitted to needing thousands upon thousands of positions filled in a myriad of sectors to keep the economy going. Heck, even bus or lorry drivers - they were simply not enough people in the country ready to take up the jobs. UK recruitment companies have been massively advertising across Europe to bring people in, even offering to set up training for them abroad before they come. This is a concerted effort to keep the economy rolling.

It baffles me how you could have something against reciprocal benefits that apply to British citizens (like you and I) as well. The people who have come in from the EU have done so for the best of reasons, and have pumped money into the system in addition to adding to the economy. They are similar folk who all speak different languages, from Spanish to Slovakian, but most are friendly, beer-drinking, barbecuing, amicable people who work hard, play hard, care for their families, respect others, enjoy a similar outlook on life, love football, don't blow up buses, have no ill intentions against our nation, etc.

What more could you possibly ask for in a joint economy that is the world's largest and most powerful when united as one?

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What people are just not realising, or if they are, are ignoring, is that the UK is a member of the eea, and any EEA country member has freedom of movement within the EEA, so the number of migrants from these countries would NOT decrease. The EEA adds Iceland Lichtenstein and Norway to the EU countries with freedom of movement, and Switzerland is a member of neither but still has freedom of movement within them.
Leaving the EU WILL NOT DECREASE THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WITH FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, OK so all you antis it's a total waste of your time and hot air.

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Sweetie, you are a stand up person, a great fellow poster and contributor here. :thumbup:

I never thought of you as EEA or non-EEA, nor did I ever state that you personally abused the system. We're simply talking statistics here, official UK gov't statistics as they are released. Anyone not from the EEA will simply be lumped together for numbers purposes, which does not mean that this applies to every individual. Being lumped together along with people from almost half-a-dozen continents has no bearing on the individual.

In fact I agree with all your thoughts on spending, paying council tax, VAT on everything, if it was me such people should be given the green light ahead of job seekers even as they bring money into a country.

My only purpose in this thread is to figure out the logic behind blaming the UE for everything (which the gov't pushes people to do in order to deflect blame from itself) when they make up the minority of immigration each year and happen to contribute the most.

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Overall population figures.
Population by Country of Birth and Nationality Report, August 2015 - ONS


The UK has admitted to needing thousands upon thousands of positions filled in a myriad of sectors to keep the economy going.

My take on that is the same as Creatures & Stevenglish. Pay a decent wage and you wouldn't need to look elsewhere.

I don't have anything against the people from EU nations. That's not the point at all. I could just as easily interpret your comments and say it baffles me why you have something against British citizens and non EU nationals.