Re: EU Referendum
 

Not sure why you're clutching at straws here and bringing this up. We are talking about MIGRATION figures here, not people from Jamaica who have been living in London for 30 years which is completely besides the point...

I already provided the link to net migration to the UK (official ONS data), and instead of accepting the facts - which for some reason you are avoiding - you come up with something completely irrelevant...

There weren't enough qualified people for the various industries mentioned. It wasn't a question of offering 2 quid more per hour. Plus it's a common market, we can get jobs anywhere in the EU. This isn't a one-way street - this actually gives UK citizens so much more choice and freedom.

Au contraire, I want Britain to lead the way, to help govern Europe and participate, not hide its tail and back off into a corner. I want us to have the maximum rights possible, to live and work freely across the continent, not be treated as Albanians on our own continent. You keep talking about "them" when in fact your almost religious beliefs in this area would be hurting UK citizens.

Re: EU Referendum
 

Sweetie? You can call me spouse of scouse, or if you prefer, sos. Thanks stud.
:angel_smile:

Re: EU Referendum
 

For me this is the crux of the matter, for example a good mate of mine, a plumber (a good one too), always worked hard, always paid his tax/mortgage etc. Along come a bunch of Polish plumbers, charging rock bottom prices, and boom! Money all but disappears, marriage hits the rocks, house is downsized and he now only gets work off people who realize how shocking this situation is. It aint just fruit pickers, and it aint just lazy ****ers. This attitude is no different to buying British, or support your local businesses either. There's an old saying that rings true here, pay peanuts - get monkeys.

Re: EU Referendum
 

Except it was more "Uber vs the Taxi Industry".

Plumbers and tradies in general gouge people for years off the back of zero effective competition. Then someone comes along with a better attitude, more willing to work, and lower prices, and the local industry is unwilling and unable to compete. Instead they look to protectionism.

The competition is fair competition and the industry in general improves as a result - a situation where capitalism works (which isn't always the case).

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Sorry mate but I'm not buying very much of that, where you say the industry is improved, I and many others see it as devalued. The better attitude and willingness to work are both rubbish and moot points, since both are insignificant compared to number 3, lower prices. Hence my statement about devaluing industry and qualifications. We're not here to take part, we're here to take over is their battle cry.

Re: EU Referendum
 

You sure you don't work for the Melbourne Taxi Industry?

It sounds so very like them complaining about Uber delivering better service, and not putting the effort into raising their game instead.

Realistically, if the industry hasn't been captured by rentseekers and gone to seed it should be damn near impossible for instances like the polish plumbers and Uber to come about. The balance between price and quality should have evened out and it would be necessary to massively change the model to gain a foot hold. Both are 'local' services where you can't have overseas competition with massively different cost structures (eg call centre outsourcing).

The fact that it was possible demonstrates that those industries NEEDED the disruptive influence of real competition (I can think of a few other too).

Turnbull should ask Poland if it could send over some tradies on 457s to do the same to the local tradies.

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We're all for a fair days work for a fair days pay aren't we, except only for us, not for the people who provide us with a service.

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I don't think looking at total immigration rather than just a couple of years is clutching at straws. Ignoring those Jamaicans and any other non EU national still leaves a picture of major influx from EU Eastern Bloc countries.
Contributors? Yes at the expense of local jobs.

Not enough qualified people for what? Brain surgeons? More like spin to cover up cheaper labour costs = higher profits.

And you really think the Germans, French et al will allow the UK to lead the way? Dream on.

The EU is a big con enriching the lives of fat cats. It is no more than a shackle to freedoms in every way.

Re: EU Referendum
 

I like cruising so SOS doesn't have a positive connotation to it.

And I referred to you as Sweetie because in my lingo it's a nice way to address someone, similarly to how in the UK someone would say "Hello love". :cool:

That's simply because I've been through the US educational system from beginning to end, speak with an American accent (though I can consciously switch to a British/Aussie accent when warranted), and a lot of my vocabulary will have an American tilt to it.

So no offense Sweetie... I mean love! :)

P.S. I kind of like the stud thing.

Re: EU Referendum
 

European free trade would have been enough, but this stupid EU bureaucracy is one hell of a hell hell.

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You saw the official migration statistics and they proved your misconceptions to be wrong, right?

So now you're no longer looking at migration - since this is a lost cause with the minority of people coming from the EU - so instead you keep digging for different statistics about current UK residents' origins, etc.?

And your SOLE REASON: to keep blaming the EU. :)

Expense? Go back and see the official stats of how many thousands of jobs were vacant in a variety of industries, how people were needed to fill those positions in order to keep the UK economy rolling. Major recruitment agencies were even tasked with the mission to seek these people from the common market and bring them in.

Keep in mind that UK citizens work in every single country across the EU as well. Other study. Others just live there because they like the sun down south. As mentioned, it's a two-way street.

Based on the current history of acting like a spoilt brat and constantly crying about not getting special treatment at the expense of others I think not. But there is nothing to stop determined, professional politicians from taking command and adopting a pro-European stance with the aim of participating in the leadership of the EU. Remember, the European Union is not "them." It's "us."

I think you're describing the Conservatives here and their cronies.

The EU a shackle to freedoms? WTF? The EU is about breaking down barriers and opening opportunities for everyone. Open your eyes and drop the preconceived hatred for once.

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That the EU is an undemocratic, inefficient and corrupt organisation must be evident to anyone who takes the trouble to look.

Places like Luxemboug and Brussels give me the willies: they are filled to the gunnels with çrats with a mission. They know what's best for the hoi polloi, they have very nice incomes and tax status and all's well in the world just so long as the aforementioned hoi polloi are kept in their place and away from any democratic input.

I voted in the 1975 (?) referendum for the Common Market: it's very well documented how the politicians of all parties lied through their teeth about the federal objectives of the thing. The establishment has consistently denied what the "ever closer union" entails.

All the talk of migrants, currency, trade deficits and the like detract from the REAL issue: all the EU countries are in the process of giving up sovereignty to an unelected - and unelectable - cabal, many of whom are ex Marxist. Legislation may only be proposed by bureacrats in committee: of the thousands of pages that are submitted to the European Parliament only a handful are ever debated and most are unread. And of course if the vote goes the wrong way a few words can be changed and they have to vote again.

I wouldn't let any of them near a used car lot, and the thought of the UK's future being run by unaccountable and non-dismissible committees horrifies me.

European countries are a wonderful microcosm of varied styles, peoples, landscapes, architectures and cultures. The EU is a backward looking, authoritarian sore. To say that the UK - or any European country - can't survive outside its straightjacket says quite a lot about national self-confidence.

Re: EU Referendum
 

You are seriously trying to belittle me like a bully boy but the ONS stats show there are more EU than non EU nationals living in the UK. Why do you find that difficult to comprehend? How do you think they got there if not through migration? Secret tunnels al la Prison Break?
The last year or so in the scheme of things could be a blip and pretty irrelevant as it could change tomorrow. The facts are residing in the UK are:
2.92m EU nationals
2.406m Non EU nationals

All those jobs you claim could not be filled from the UK workforce (other than perhaps some very specialists positions) I still say BS.

You really are out of touch with the person in the street and not just in the UK but throughout Europe. In my job I spent years travelling throughout the EU and rarely did I find anyone in favour of a Federation.

I see you were educated in the USA which explains a lot as you have adopted their doctrine "do as I say, not as I do". That is exactly what politicians are doing in the EU. Trying to force the federation on the peoples who do not want it but it suits them for some power trip or financial gain; maybe both..

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Surely any system that uses representative and participatory democracy, as the EU does, is self-evidently better as a democratic system than a system based on hereditary peerage and devolved monarchy as the UK is?

The argument that the EU is somehow undemocratic is completely farcical. I could entertain arguments about transparency and if European Commissioners should be elected on a representative basis instead of appointed by elected national governments but I will not entertain the idea that the EU suffers from some sort of democratic deficit when compared with the UK.

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The difference of course being that the Aussies can to a large extent control and decide who they allow in.

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The EU is not only undemocratic but absolutely rotten to the core and in addition is trying to drag the populations of many countries in a direction which they do not want to go ie Federal Europe.

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Can you elaborate with actual examples?

I don't want anyone to think me cruel or come across as diminutive about anyone but my problem here is that it's very difficult for me to say anything meaningful when an assertion is used instead of presenting an argument. If we are going to have a chat about the EU lets have an actual discussion and do it in an articulate way with specifics that support our views and allow them to be held accountable on their own merit.

I want to understand what you have to say and we may not agree but the better I understand your viewpoint the more likely I am to come to an agreement on viewpoints. Anyway this post has already lost the power of succinct expression so I'll let you present your argument.

Re: EU Referendum
 

Let's say there is an issue about which you feel strongly and believe should be covered by legislation. What can you do about it?

Under the UK's system of governance you can lobby your MP (or any MP). If you can convince them your cause is a worthy one they can introduce a bill to parliament where it can be debated and, if it gathers enough support, passed into law. If you don't get the results you want from your MP you can vote for someone else at the next election.

Under the EU system, you can do nothing. You can lobby your MEP as much as you like, but it will get you nowhere. MEPs do not have the right to propose legislation to the EU parliament; that right is reserved for the EU Commission. Commission members are not elected, they are appointed (by the European Council) so you cannot vote them out of office.

That is why the EU is inherently undemocratic: you can't vote for anyone who proposes legislation and the people you do vote for cannot propose legislation. How is that a democracy?

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In the case of non-EEA citizens (who were the ones being termed parasites), so can the UK.

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The UK fails quite miserably in that area though. Every year the UK misses its targets by a huge figure. Australia sets its annual quotas and for the most part sticks to them. Part of the problem in the UK is the civil servants aren't paying much attention to the directives from their political masters and that is what has caused it to be fully out of control.

Immigration statistics show record level of UK net migration – as it happened - Telegraph

Re: EU Referendum
 

Actually I'd say the general problem is they pay too much attention to the ideas and views of the MPs - and that's the root of screwups.

MPs in general are egotistical middle manager types, promoted past their level of competence (I know you've met that type before). They are all about "I want to see this happen", but oblivious to how to make that happen, or even if it makes any sense at all. As you will know, with that type you either try to keep them away from anything dangerous, humour them, and feed them bulls*t; or you listen and run around trying to make it happen within the bounds of the possible, even if it is damn stoopid.

On immigration, the terms are set by laws that the bozos themselves set; free movement in the EU, spouses and family joining migrants, etc. that make headline figures targets not only ludicrous, but also counterproductive.

And a key point that I don't think people have picked up on. Migration of younger working families to the UK is a matter of policy. As the existing population ages and demographics of working age people declines, how are you going to pay for those pensions, health services, etc. ? Getting young families and kids into the country is a matter of policy to try and make it possible for those grannies to not starve and the current account budget not go even further into the red.

UK population: how will it change over the next few decades? | News | The Guardian

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Have you any idea how legislation is processed in the EU?

They even coined a word for it : comitology. Laws are drafted in back room committees by unelected bureacrats and sent to the European parliament for approval. MEPs vote on them but something like 3/4 are not seriously debated but are passed on the nod. There are tens of thousands of pages most of which go unperused. On the odd occasion that something is voted down, a few trivial changes can be made until they vote the right way. The EU has form on the voting front, of course. Effectively, MEPs wield little power.

Actually, that was the case until recently. It's pretty obscure but they were forced to slightly change the fundamentally undemocratic system fairly recently IIRC. Plus ca change though, looking at the way it works.

Re: EU Referendum
 

Not trying to bully you at all, brother. Just that ONS migration data clearly shows the truth: that each and every year the net migration from outside the EU is greater than the number of people coming in from the EU itself.

Why have you given up focusing on annual migration statistics? What you seem to be doing now is digging in people's history, looking at those who have possibly lived here since WWII, etc. Because pure logic should tell you that if there are more people coming in each year from outside the EU then if there are more people with European roots actually in the UK then they've been here a long, long while...

Heck, your data would actually make me really happy but in reality I have never been anywhere in the UK where I could feel that the majority of people around me are Europeans (not counting British folk). I do get that lovely feeling when walking up the high street in Bournemouth and hearing several different European languages spoken along the way, but I do realise they are mostly students who are only visiting, who will then return and set up their lives elsewhere.

But I have been to places in the UK where I can ABSOLUTELY assure you that it did feel like non-Europeans made up the majority. And I mean the MAJORITY, even if you were to combine all Europeans including locals.

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Actually the system works really well because it's designed to be efficient. Just look again and how things flow in the EU and then compare to most national governments and the chaos that often ensues.

I think you've got things mixed up a bit in term of the mechanics. It's the EU parliament that gives final approval to European Commission members. And parliament is part of the legislative process, only that the Commission members that they approve are responsible for initiating legislation (though it still has to pass a vote, right?).

And you're complaining just because your local MEP can't whip up something and put it to a vote bypassing the legislative process currently in place? Wow...

On a side note, why would you be lobbying your MEP to pass EU-wide legislation (technically you could but the MEP is part of a broader coalition so it would have to make sense for the legislation to apply across the continent)? Have you ever even lobbied your local MP in the UK to get local legislation passed? Or is this just a case of "I'm going to whine about not being able to do something even though I don't want to do anyway" type situation? :)

Re: EU Referendum
 

Yes one could think that except the same ONS also states:

"The number of usual residents in the UK that held EU nationality (excluding British) was higher than those that held non-EU nationality (2,938,000 compared to 2,406,000) for the second year in a row – prior to 2013 this had not occurred since the Annual Population Survey began in 2004".

Now if it is the first time EU nationals out numbered non EU nationals since 2004 it cannot be that
"each and every year the net migration from outside the EU is greater than the number of people coming in from the EU itself."

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I must be missing it but the only person I can find using that term (parasites) is you :confused:

There was a comment about non-EEA migrants taking more out of the system than they put in but I do think that those figures are pre 2012 - which goes some way to explain why the rules were changed possibly.

Re: EU Referendum
 

Post 18

Re: EU Referendum
 

Thanks Bix - I did think it was unusual.

Sorry SoS, I missed it - I know how difficult it is now for UK citizens to take their non-EEA spouses / family to the UK and no way are they abusing the system. In fact, I don't think many migrants do but it's always those that do that make the headlines :(

Re: EU Referendum
 

Democratic trumps efficient.

Consider the process for that.
The European Parliament gets a vote on the president in an election with 1 candidate who is proposed by the European Council. They then get to vote on whether to accept either all or none of the other 27 proposed commission members selected by the president from candidates suggested by the EU countries. No matter how efficient that is, it means that 28 people are appointed to positions of immense power (where they are the only people able to propose European legislation) without being elected to those positions by the population at large. Further, ordinary citizens cannot even put forward candidates they would like to see in those positions. That is not what I call democracy.

"Whip up" is just stirring the pot, but yes, I am complaining because the legislative process currently in place is designed to prevent the electorate or their elected representatives having any input into what legislation is even proposed .

Why not?
Are you saying that having legislation apply across the continent can never make sense? (So there is no need for EU legislation?). Or are you saying only 28 people in the whole of Europe are capable of originating sensible legislative ideas? Or something else? Sorry, I don't understand your point here, but I suspect it is an important issue, not a side note.

Well now here's the thing, ignoring the fact that I don't have a "local MP in the UK". I believe that democratic processes, by their very presence, improve society regardless of whether and how often a particular individual uses them. There are many things (for example: the right to a fair trial, votes for women, cancer treatment on the NHS, the right to stand for parliament ...) which I hope I will never personally use, but which I support because they improve society for everyone, even those who have not personally used them in the past.

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Unlike yourself of course? What is it with the British that makes them think that the nation are just a collection of lazy bastards... apart from themselves?

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....Bloody whinging Poms :thumbdown:

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Same reason EVERYONE hates tailgaters, but NO-ONE tailgates haha

Re: EU Referendum
 

Oh I would say that the EU makes more sensible legislation than most national governments I can think of. And in contrast to the US it's nowhere near as easy to "lobby" politicians for laws which are solely aimed at protecting the interests of such "contributors."

The ideas come from far and wide but are are simply initiated by the Commission members who have been given backing from the European Parliament. It's obviously not just these people who come up with stuff.

Just look at the way they tackled the telecommunications industry and how European consumers - including ourselves naturally - were getting plundered in broad daylight like there was no tomorrow.: blink:

Look at the airline industry and how carriers used to previously be able to oversell seats, have delays or announce cancellations without breaking much of a sweat. And look at them today and how they are now legally accountable for significant compensation on flights involving the EU. Has the rest of the world been able to implement something similar to protect consumers? Australia, the US? Not yet? :)

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.

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The EU is not working. No growth, decision making that is divorced from the people, unemployment, over-regulation and no answers to the problems it is facing, I can go on and on. Britain should have some faith in itself to do better outside the EU than inside.

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Word coming out the the EU overnight is that the other EU leaders are not playing ball, even with Cameron's very weak and watery supposed agreement with the EU bureaucrats.

Is it just theatrics to make Cameron look like he has won something substantial? Maybe, but the words coming out look as if more than that; that it's real intransigence on the part of the EU.

I'm kind of wondering if Cameron will emerge after tomorrow's negotiation saying 'right, all out'. I'd say the odds have shifted noticeably both the limited nature of the agreement, and the fact that Cameron can't even get them to sign up to that.

EU referendum: 'No progress' so far on Cameron's talks - BBC News

Re: EU Referendum
 

Yeah, right. :zzz: The EU is still the most powerful economy in the world, and that's not even counting super-rich nations like Norway or Switzerland that are part of Europe but not the EU. Norway could join though in the future, as their economy could benefit greatly from being part of the EU, without the current (but sensible from the EU perspective) inhibitions that prevent some of their main industries from developing further due to certain limitations, like only being able to sell base products without the ability to process them and change the game altogether (of course they could still sell... but duties imposed would be heavier).

I would love to see the same analogy applied to the Premier League. Club X wins the EPL. And then the classic whingers attacking the club for not being effective enough, LOL.

There is growth and decision-making is done right, just look at the results. There is no over-regulation unless you are representing a mobile phone company pissed off at not being able to steal on a grand scale on roaming charges or an airline not being able to treat European consumers like garbage. Fair enough, if you represent corporations then there is definitely OVER-REGULATION that goes against you. As a person and EU citizen you are the CLEAR winner though.

Even on an international scale we are able to come together and tackle a divisive issue such as Russia. They would want nothing more than to cripple and divide the EU. Why do you think they've been pumping money into all the anti-EU parties across Europe? Russia is weak and helpless when having to confront the EU. But if it could divide the continent into small, separate entities, then suddenly its position would be much stronger. Even the US President is sending a clear message to the UK: you are much STRONGER in the EU and we want to see a STRONG UK in a STRONG EU.

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No the EU is not working. If, Astera, you are lucky enough to live in Australia with its 6% unemployment rate then you are likely to be working. However. in the EU unemployment is 11.4%. The Labour Force Participation rate is 57% in Europe compared to 64% in Australia. This is pathetic. If you are Greek or Portuguese then your future is bleak in the EU and you are a victim of the Economic straightjacket that is the Euro - a currency that even its founders admit is a political project. Quite simply the project is failing. Growth is approximately 1% across the whole continent. The EU’s economic woes have many causes, but intrusively regulated economies and outsized government spending on generous social welfare transfers are two of the most important.
If you think the EU is such a wonderful project why don't you buy an airline ticket and try your luck there - believe me you will need it.

Also stop pretending that the EU is a model of democracy. Much of the decision making powers are held by the Council of the European Union and the European Commission both of which are are appointed by or made up from representatives (such as Governments, political parties). This is at best indirectly democratic, I call it an additional layer of government taking decision making away from the people.

Also your opinion on the EU and Russia is laughable. Has the EU resolved the Ukrainian crisis? has it fronted up to Putin? The answer to both questions is a resounding no.

In summary; floundering economy, democratic deficit, lack of foreign policy unity, collapsing open borders, lack of answers to the migrant crisis, divergent economies, unemployment, virtual zero growth - thank God I became an Australian.

Re: EU Referendum
 

I wish they would hurry up and get on with this referendum. The sooner Britain can depart the EU the better. There is part of me though, that feels it won't happen no matter what the referendum result is.

Re: EU Referendum
 

I believe your condition is called Cognitive Dissonance