Beoz

Is that all you have? So back in post 948 where you said Turnbull and Abbott/Howard before are puppets of business, the rich and those with self interest at heart. and you can't back it up, you resort to deflection tactics. So bloody typical of the left.

OzTennis

Thick or what? I said I was using the logic of the Lone Ranger and Tonto - Shorten is a puppet of; Turnbull is a puppet of. Get it?

To claim that anyone needs to provide proof or evidence that Liberals and Conservatives don't represent business, the well off and those with self interest at heart beggars belief frankly. Since you ask, is this not looking after the interests of individuals? (self-interest):

Beoz

So you've got nothing and revert to insults. A typical, unintelligent left wing trait. Bill Shorten to the core.

If you think beyond your left wing trash mags, you will realise your Menzies quote is more fitting towards the government that is currently in power than the one who has a distant wish to be in power.

OzTennis

Geez!!!! You ask me where's my proof that the Liberals stand for self-interest, I quote the founding father of the party which shows that's what it's all about and instead of saying you are wrong or back down you come out with irrelevant meaningless nonsense about me reading left wing trash mags and make it about the Labor Party. It would never have occurred to me that the Menzies quote relates more to the Liberal Party than the Labor Party; who'd have thought.

Now, I'll try for the third or fourth time. You seem to be totally opposed to unions in the workplace. Which of the benefits of trade unions stated by the coalition government do you disagree with and why?

You also didn't disagree that your reaction to a tax rise would immediately be one of self-interest.

The more I see your posts the more you remind me of the 'Know Nothing Party'. I'd guess you'll have to look that up and once you have do you think you are looking into an historical mirror and saying 'that's me'.

Beoz

Are you kidding? I'm not even sure whether you support the labour party anymore. You seem to be more inline with the Menzies statement. Typical unionist and labour supporter ..... confused.

So what don't I like about unions?

Lets start with unions and their damage to industry. Perhaps the car industry. By demanding such conditions and pay for their workers the car industry can no longer afford to adapt and roll with economic climates, has been forced to fold, both here and other countries. Unions are to blame there. Instead of asking "how can we help you survive and grow, so our workers can have jobs" they have killed it off.

How about a topic closer to your heart? Teachers. Every few years its the same problem. The unions complain schools are massively under funded, the funds are provided, and nothing improves. The real problem here is the protection of the crap teachers. If the crap ones could be easily fired for just being crap, the quality would improve and the crap weeded out of the system. The self centred protection of teachers would cease and the focus would be on the protection and education of our children. Children - the amount vastly exceeds that of teachers. Again unions are protecting a few rather than a lot.

Is that enough for you sport.

Unions have gone beyond their role of protecting the little guy and formed political parties with corrupt interests in money and power. What is the point in supporting a party that represents a declining less than 20% of workers. Unions and the labour party destroy, they are undemocratic, corrupt, power hungry and ultimately dumb. The Labour party will die, and good riddance.

OzTennis

There's too much hyperbole and stereotyping in there to bother picking up on most of the rant.

You haven't answered the question as usual. For someone who lauds the right of the individual you are saying that people don't have a right to get together to bargain collectively, to try to get safer and better conditions for all workers (non members rarely refuse gains made by members) etc, etc?

You spout nonsense about things like the EU and Labor Party dying and ending. They will go on and change to meet different circumstances.

What you don't realise is that Labor Party is not simply about unions, it represents lots of other groups in society.

BadgeIsBack

Nothing wrong with that definition of classic self-interest, Mr Tennis. Infinitely superior to the self interest of the battler who won't and can't improve himself through work and enterprise.

BadgeIsBack

Who? If only 20pc is represented by unions then it's a non-starter. It's not as if socialists or inner city types vote Labour they now vote Green (in Melbourne at any rate). The smartest blue collar workers don't need Unions as they own their own businesses or work for themselves. I would vote Green long before Labour..

OzTennis

There's a difference between denial that Liberals are keen on self interest and one self interest is more laudable than another. I'm not discussing the latter - I was challenged to provide proof that Liberals are about self interest and I quoted the founding father of the party. The reply to this was a nonsensical rant about left wing rags, death of the Labor Party etc.

Menzies himself used similar tactics. When put on the spot at public gatherings about his policies or asked decent questions he used diversionary tactics like 'go get a haircut son' which always raised a laugh among his supporters - that's telling him Bob.

Speaking of the hyperbole, who would deny there are battlers who won't and can't improve themself? Don't make out that all are like that though.

OzTennis

Not you, the clue is in who I quoted. Just because I'm not right wing or extreme right wing doesn't mean I vote Labor (or Labour). I used to vote Labour in the prosperous years when Britain rarely had it better, I'm not a Corbyn fan at all and would rather vote independent or Lib Dem or Green (although they are mainly a one issue party which isn't suitable for government so in a sense a wasted vote) but not SNP or Tory (never voted for either in my life).

I was a fan of Bill Hayden, Bob Hawke, even Keating. That's the Labor I grew up with. I have a working class background and I'm proud of it, my blue collar worker father and my mother who worked part time managed to put all 3 of their boys through university for which we are eternally grateful.

You could say I was old Labor in Australia and new Labour in Britain but my votes have moved between a few parties since. The person I quoted has me down for an impressionable person who only reads extreme left wing propaganda and doesn't have a mind of his own. He's even accused me on a number of occasions of being uneducated (which was a big mistake on his behalf). None of my pals in Melbourne vote Green so it might be a younger generation thing? They either vote Labor or Liberal.

The thing which amazes me is that if Labor is so irrelevant and so corrupt and so whatever (if you believe the right), why do they alternate power with the coalition and run them close in elections? They would seem to be anything but irrelevant. If union membership is down to 20% (actually 1 in 9 in private sector but 39% in public sector), why do they often get close to half the vote after preferences? Now the same can't be said for Labour's prospects under Corbyn and it's why I wouldn't vote for any of his candidates under his leadership.

Beoz

Well I hope they do. But lets face it, the EU is looking like a basket case, and the Labour and Labor parties aren't looking too sexy at the moment either. Especially in the UK. At least in Australia they have Mediscare which is a profoundly thought provoking policy. God knows why they gave up on negative gearing.

Beoz

It would probably shock you to hear that we have some similarities there. My working class father, left school at 14, worked for the man, under unions, until he saw the light and got out to run his own blue collar business, while my mother worked her socks off to provide and keep the self business risks at bay.

Unfortunately I didn't have the good fortune of yourself to have a paid for tertiary education. But as you know, I would never resent anyone for good fortune.

cresta57

I'd say that it's for the same reason my former U.K MP kept his seat since 1977: No matter what some people will always vote Labour even if it was party policy to sacrifice one's firstborn they would still vote labour rather than "those bastard Tories". The further North [in the U.K] the more ingrained it is. If you were to compare former coalfields with Labour seats with the exception of Grimsby & Hull [Former deep sea trawler communities] you could almost overlay the two on a map.
It's the marginal areas that decide govt. every time. That's why they stay marginal, both sides have to bribe their way into power via those marginal seats.

OzTennis

Geez you really are tiresome. Why don't you PM me to find out my circumstances before you shoot of your mouth with nonsense?

You do not know the system of university fees when myself and 2 brothers went through Uni as you were either not born or not in Australia.

At the time we were educated you had to pay fees to get a place but the government offered a small number of scholarships which were based on your HSC results (i.e. on merit not on how well off your parents were).

Yes, me and my 2 brothers all won scholarships by our results and had our fees paid but books, food, travel expenses etc we were on our own. We worked part time as well as studying full time to earn enough money to help our parents and had to live at home.

After all of us went through uni Labor governments such as Whitlam's and Hawke's tried to make it easier for anyone with the ability to go to university but that was too late for our family. My father had his education interrupted by the war and had to go out and work under an apprenticeship scheme. Through night classes he eventually got to a position of workshop manager.

I'm for the underdog who doesn't get a decent chance if he/she is willing to try. I'm not for those who won't get off their backside.

Beoz

Diddums. Sounds like it was tough. Working and studying at the same time. No one does that eh?

I'm all for people getting off their backsides too. Sounds like you are voting for the wrong team.