Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
Oct 1st 2007, 9:45 pm
#16
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,133
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
can someone please inform me of any rational arguments against the change to daylight saving ?
Maybe just one argument that will make me think "hmmm....thats a good point - maybe daylight saving isn't such a good idea" ?
It seems to me that the only reason we are not changing, is because "people in regional queensland don't want to change". Well, I don't think that's a very good argument. It just seems to be a backwards way of thinking.... it is effectively standing in the way of progress.
No doubt the ancestors of those people who are against daylight saving were the ones who never accepted that the world wasn't flat.
Maybe just one argument that will make me think "hmmm....thats a good point - maybe daylight saving isn't such a good idea" ?
It seems to me that the only reason we are not changing, is because "people in regional queensland don't want to change". Well, I don't think that's a very good argument. It just seems to be a backwards way of thinking.... it is effectively standing in the way of progress.
No doubt the ancestors of those people who are against daylight saving were the ones who never accepted that the world wasn't flat.
And before anyone complains, he threw the first insult at my family ...
Oct 1st 2007, 9:47 pm
#17
Account Open
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 4,298
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
You're a real comedian. I can hardly type, I'm laughing so hard.
Oct 1st 2007, 9:49 pm
#18
Account Open
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 4,298
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
Ps - Vim, can you provide any real arguments for the position "against" daylight saving?
Or is that question too hard for you to answer.
Or is that question too hard for you to answer.
Oct 1st 2007, 10:07 pm
#21
Account Open
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 4,298
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
ha ha... 
School is probably an alien concept to you. I'd guess that you spent your childhood days stealing crab-apples and your teenage years drinking diamond white in the local park.
Come on....get back to the subject. Why are you for daylight saving mate? Doesn't it make more sense to have the lights turned on when we're awake, and turned off when we're asleep?
School is probably an alien concept to you. I'd guess that you spent your childhood days stealing crab-apples and your teenage years drinking diamond white in the local park.
Come on....get back to the subject. Why are you for daylight saving mate? Doesn't it make more sense to have the lights turned on when we're awake, and turned off when we're asleep?
Oct 1st 2007, 10:26 pm
#22
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,133
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
ha ha...
School is probably an alien concept to you. I'd guess that you spent your childhood days stealing crab-apples and your teenage years drinking diamond white in the local park.
Come on....get back to the subject. Why are you for daylight saving mate? Doesn't it make more sense to have the lights turned on when we're awake, and turned off when we're asleep?
School is probably an alien concept to you. I'd guess that you spent your childhood days stealing crab-apples and your teenage years drinking diamond white in the local park.
Come on....get back to the subject. Why are you for daylight saving mate? Doesn't it make more sense to have the lights turned on when we're awake, and turned off when we're asleep?
I've already stated my position, research was done, the people spoke and I support Anna Bligh recognising that there is life outside SE Queensland.
Oct 2nd 2007, 8:50 am
#23
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 510
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
I don't understand why people who live in regional qld get a bigger say on daylight saving than those living in SE Qld... is there any logic to this at all?
It seems to be pretty farcical that the "premier" can take the results of a poll, commissioned by the courier mail, of only 1,000 people...and categorically state that there will be no daylight saving referendum !!
It seems to be pretty farcical that the "premier" can take the results of a poll, commissioned by the courier mail, of only 1,000 people...and categorically state that there will be no daylight saving referendum !!
On a side note, I find it amazing that a lot of Brisbane-ites have never thoroughly explored the rest of their state! It's intriguing how many people I meet who have never been further north than Bundaberg, for example. There's a whole another world waiting up north!
Cheers,
V.
Oct 2nd 2007, 8:50 am
#24
MODERATOR
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Redneck Wonderland
Posts: 9,932
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
This kind of sums up the whole scenario, it may be a bit long & technical for those who just want an extra hour of daylight to sit & drink piss by the pool.
The problem in the ongoing debate about daylight saving in Queensland is that the rapidly growing urbanized coastal strip in southeastern Queensland lies so far to the east in relation to the rest of the state. Its southern location exacerbates the problem during summer.
In winter the sun rises in a line parallel to the Queensland coast with the result that the coastal cities have sunrise at much the same time. In summer the sun rises in a line parallel to the NSW coast with the result that the southeastern corner of Queensland has sunrise even earlier in relation to the rest of the state than would be expected from its eastern location.
Mean solar time is the average time of the day when the sun is at its highest point. Queensland is an enormous state and therefore has a wide variation in the mean solar times for its different regions. The mean solar time for Brisbane is 11:45am. By contrast the mean solar time for Cairns is about 40 minutes later at 12:25pm and Mt Isa a full hour later at 12:45pm.
Local authorities when choosing a time zone for a region try to ensure that the mean solar time will fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. This is the time band that will allow maximum utilization of the daylight hours for the majority of people in that region. All the major centres in Australia, with the exception of Brisbane, fall into this time band e.g. Adelaide 12:20pm, Darwin 12:45pm, Melbourne 12:25pm, Perth 12:20pm and Sydney 12:05pm.
Time zones allow local time to approximate the mean solar time. There has been a general trend to push the boundaries of time zones further west in order to create a permanent daylight saving time effect. Urban regions are more likely to embrace this than rural areas. As will be the case next year in Australia, there is also a worldwide trend to extend the period of daylight saving. The local authorities are aware of the benefits to lifestyle, energy savings, road safety and crime prevention that occur from this shift west.
The higher latitudes of the southern regions of Australia result in relatively longer daylight hours during summer and this allows some leeway in shifting the mean solar time to a band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm. During daylight saving the mean solar time for Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne will be an hour later at about 1:20pm. Darwin at its lower latitude does not have this leeway and its mean solar time remains at 12:45pm year round.
At latitudes of less than 28º (approximately the SEQ region) daylight hours vary less between summer and winter and there is very little leeway to shift the mean solar time outside of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm time band. This is well illustrated by comparing Cairns and Melbourne. Both are positioned along similar lines of longitude (145º E) and therefore have similar mean solar times (12:25pm). In Melbourne the sun rises at around 7:30am in July and around 5:15am in January without daylight saving. Daylight saving shifts sunrise in January to around 6:15am which is still over 75 minutes earlier than in winter. Cairns however has sunrise at around 6:00am in January and around 6:45am in July. If daylight saving were introduced in Cairns, sunrise would move to around 7:00am in January or at least 15 minutes later than in mid-winter!
In Brisbane shifting the clocks in summer would result in sunrise during January still being about 40 minutes earlier than in July. This time difference decreases rapidly north of Brisbane and becomes negative north of Bundaberg. This demonstrates how inappropriate and unworkable statewide daylight saving would be.
Most people would therefore agree that regions north of about 28º S do not need daylight saving provided that their mean solar times fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. SEQ is the only urbanized region in Australia (irrespective of latitude) where mean solar time does not fall between 12:00 pm and 1:00pm. As noted above, its location in the southern part of Queensland exacerbates the problem in summer. Thus the call from the southeastern corner is not so much about introducing daylight saving but rather about shifting the mean solar time for the region from 11:45am to 12:45pm. The rest of Queensland is already in the correct time zone and therefore opposes daylight saving as this would shift the mean solar time in that region to the band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm.
There is an argument that SEQ should be an hour ahead of the rest of Queensland year round based on a mean solar time of 12:45pm (the same as Darwin). The benefit would be that the last warm hour of winter sunshine could be utilized by more people as it would occur an hour later between 5pm to 6pm. The drawback would be that the sun would rise an hour later but even in mid-winter it would still be starting to get light by 7:10am at the latest. SEQ would then essentially then have the same times of daylight throughout the year that Mount Isa has at present.
Daylight saving and time zones are two very different issues.
Daylight saving is best utilized in the southern states which have latitudes of over 28º and longer summer days. Two time zones are required in states with large east-west dimensions irrespective of latitude whose range of solar time exceeds one hour or if the solar time range for the region is skewed to one side or the other of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm band.
Queensland fulfils both criteria for a state that needs two time zones. In its current time zone the mean solar time range is from 11:45am to12:55pm. The mean solar time is therefore skewed to the left (11:45am to 12:00pm) and has a range of greater than one hour.
Ten of the larger states in the USA ranging from Florida to Oregon have two time zones. All of them with the exception of Texas have a land area less than a quarter the size of Queensland. The western part of the Florida panhandle (a region of 200km by 60km representing less than 10% of the land area of Florida) is in a different time zone to the rest of the state. Although the state capital is only 75km to the east of this region, the residents of that region have decided that the advantages of being in the correct time zone outweigh the disadvantages of being in a different time zone to the capital and the rest of the state. Tennessee and Kentucky, unable to fit into one of the existing time zones without skewing their mean solar time band to one side or the other, have elected to have two time zones. The states are divided almost exactly in half by the time zone line. The states could have fitted into a single time zone with a half hour time difference to the states around them, but it would appear that two time zones is the preferred option.
Five of the ten provinces of Canada utilize two time zones. The province of British Columbia in Canada is of similar geographic size and shape as Queensland. The southeastern corner of British Columbia (an area no bigger than the Brisbane/Ipswich/Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast region) is one hour ahead of the rest of the province. I lived in the middle of British Columbia for five years and was unaware of any opposition to or controversy regarding the two time zones. There is no “deep chasm” - Premier Beatties words last week - dividing the people of British Columbia. The two time zones enable the people of British Columbia to live in their geographically correct time zone and utilize the daylight hours. British Columbia, as reflects its high latitude, also has daylight saving.
The business community in SEQ wants daylight saving while the business community in the rest of Queensland is against it. This reflects the view of the people in each of their regions and it is not surprising that each business community supports that regional view. Despite what some people think, business is not the prime mover for SEQ to adopt daylight saving. It is the people of southeastern Queensland.
The argument that two time zones would shift a Queensland/NSW problem to an intrastate problem has some merit but is insignificant when compared to the lifestyle, energy and road safety benefits that the people in SEQ would immediately have. One time zone for Queensland business may be convenient but it is not essential. In other parts of the world any inconvenience of having two time zones in one state is easily adapted to and accommodated.
It is not surprising that the new demographics, increasing urbanization and changing lifestyle demands in southeastern Queensland are creating the perfect storm that is increasing the momentum for changing the clocks in that region.
On the other hand, the fierce opposition to changing the clocks in the rest of the state will continue. The regions latitude and position in the correct time zone will ensure that this position will never change. The residents of the region have been unfairly maligned over their entirely appropriate and correct views on daylight saving in their region.
In summary, Queensland needs two time zones for at least the summer months based purely on its latitude and broad range of solar time.
Until the need for two time zones is recognized the perennial issue of daylight saving in Queensland will never be resolved.
The problem in the ongoing debate about daylight saving in Queensland is that the rapidly growing urbanized coastal strip in southeastern Queensland lies so far to the east in relation to the rest of the state. Its southern location exacerbates the problem during summer.
In winter the sun rises in a line parallel to the Queensland coast with the result that the coastal cities have sunrise at much the same time. In summer the sun rises in a line parallel to the NSW coast with the result that the southeastern corner of Queensland has sunrise even earlier in relation to the rest of the state than would be expected from its eastern location.
Mean solar time is the average time of the day when the sun is at its highest point. Queensland is an enormous state and therefore has a wide variation in the mean solar times for its different regions. The mean solar time for Brisbane is 11:45am. By contrast the mean solar time for Cairns is about 40 minutes later at 12:25pm and Mt Isa a full hour later at 12:45pm.
Local authorities when choosing a time zone for a region try to ensure that the mean solar time will fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. This is the time band that will allow maximum utilization of the daylight hours for the majority of people in that region. All the major centres in Australia, with the exception of Brisbane, fall into this time band e.g. Adelaide 12:20pm, Darwin 12:45pm, Melbourne 12:25pm, Perth 12:20pm and Sydney 12:05pm.
Time zones allow local time to approximate the mean solar time. There has been a general trend to push the boundaries of time zones further west in order to create a permanent daylight saving time effect. Urban regions are more likely to embrace this than rural areas. As will be the case next year in Australia, there is also a worldwide trend to extend the period of daylight saving. The local authorities are aware of the benefits to lifestyle, energy savings, road safety and crime prevention that occur from this shift west.
The higher latitudes of the southern regions of Australia result in relatively longer daylight hours during summer and this allows some leeway in shifting the mean solar time to a band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm. During daylight saving the mean solar time for Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne will be an hour later at about 1:20pm. Darwin at its lower latitude does not have this leeway and its mean solar time remains at 12:45pm year round.
At latitudes of less than 28º (approximately the SEQ region) daylight hours vary less between summer and winter and there is very little leeway to shift the mean solar time outside of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm time band. This is well illustrated by comparing Cairns and Melbourne. Both are positioned along similar lines of longitude (145º E) and therefore have similar mean solar times (12:25pm). In Melbourne the sun rises at around 7:30am in July and around 5:15am in January without daylight saving. Daylight saving shifts sunrise in January to around 6:15am which is still over 75 minutes earlier than in winter. Cairns however has sunrise at around 6:00am in January and around 6:45am in July. If daylight saving were introduced in Cairns, sunrise would move to around 7:00am in January or at least 15 minutes later than in mid-winter!
In Brisbane shifting the clocks in summer would result in sunrise during January still being about 40 minutes earlier than in July. This time difference decreases rapidly north of Brisbane and becomes negative north of Bundaberg. This demonstrates how inappropriate and unworkable statewide daylight saving would be.
Most people would therefore agree that regions north of about 28º S do not need daylight saving provided that their mean solar times fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. SEQ is the only urbanized region in Australia (irrespective of latitude) where mean solar time does not fall between 12:00 pm and 1:00pm. As noted above, its location in the southern part of Queensland exacerbates the problem in summer. Thus the call from the southeastern corner is not so much about introducing daylight saving but rather about shifting the mean solar time for the region from 11:45am to 12:45pm. The rest of Queensland is already in the correct time zone and therefore opposes daylight saving as this would shift the mean solar time in that region to the band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm.
There is an argument that SEQ should be an hour ahead of the rest of Queensland year round based on a mean solar time of 12:45pm (the same as Darwin). The benefit would be that the last warm hour of winter sunshine could be utilized by more people as it would occur an hour later between 5pm to 6pm. The drawback would be that the sun would rise an hour later but even in mid-winter it would still be starting to get light by 7:10am at the latest. SEQ would then essentially then have the same times of daylight throughout the year that Mount Isa has at present.
Daylight saving and time zones are two very different issues.
Daylight saving is best utilized in the southern states which have latitudes of over 28º and longer summer days. Two time zones are required in states with large east-west dimensions irrespective of latitude whose range of solar time exceeds one hour or if the solar time range for the region is skewed to one side or the other of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm band.
Queensland fulfils both criteria for a state that needs two time zones. In its current time zone the mean solar time range is from 11:45am to12:55pm. The mean solar time is therefore skewed to the left (11:45am to 12:00pm) and has a range of greater than one hour.
Ten of the larger states in the USA ranging from Florida to Oregon have two time zones. All of them with the exception of Texas have a land area less than a quarter the size of Queensland. The western part of the Florida panhandle (a region of 200km by 60km representing less than 10% of the land area of Florida) is in a different time zone to the rest of the state. Although the state capital is only 75km to the east of this region, the residents of that region have decided that the advantages of being in the correct time zone outweigh the disadvantages of being in a different time zone to the capital and the rest of the state. Tennessee and Kentucky, unable to fit into one of the existing time zones without skewing their mean solar time band to one side or the other, have elected to have two time zones. The states are divided almost exactly in half by the time zone line. The states could have fitted into a single time zone with a half hour time difference to the states around them, but it would appear that two time zones is the preferred option.
Five of the ten provinces of Canada utilize two time zones. The province of British Columbia in Canada is of similar geographic size and shape as Queensland. The southeastern corner of British Columbia (an area no bigger than the Brisbane/Ipswich/Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast region) is one hour ahead of the rest of the province. I lived in the middle of British Columbia for five years and was unaware of any opposition to or controversy regarding the two time zones. There is no “deep chasm” - Premier Beatties words last week - dividing the people of British Columbia. The two time zones enable the people of British Columbia to live in their geographically correct time zone and utilize the daylight hours. British Columbia, as reflects its high latitude, also has daylight saving.
The business community in SEQ wants daylight saving while the business community in the rest of Queensland is against it. This reflects the view of the people in each of their regions and it is not surprising that each business community supports that regional view. Despite what some people think, business is not the prime mover for SEQ to adopt daylight saving. It is the people of southeastern Queensland.
The argument that two time zones would shift a Queensland/NSW problem to an intrastate problem has some merit but is insignificant when compared to the lifestyle, energy and road safety benefits that the people in SEQ would immediately have. One time zone for Queensland business may be convenient but it is not essential. In other parts of the world any inconvenience of having two time zones in one state is easily adapted to and accommodated.
It is not surprising that the new demographics, increasing urbanization and changing lifestyle demands in southeastern Queensland are creating the perfect storm that is increasing the momentum for changing the clocks in that region.
On the other hand, the fierce opposition to changing the clocks in the rest of the state will continue. The regions latitude and position in the correct time zone will ensure that this position will never change. The residents of the region have been unfairly maligned over their entirely appropriate and correct views on daylight saving in their region.
In summary, Queensland needs two time zones for at least the summer months based purely on its latitude and broad range of solar time.
Until the need for two time zones is recognized the perennial issue of daylight saving in Queensland will never be resolved.
Oct 2nd 2007, 8:56 am
#25
You call that a moustache
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Heading West..
Posts: 2,060
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
Part of the reason why it seems so crazy - from my point of view - is that firstly there was going to be a referendum, but now there isn't cos a few newspaper readers have made the decision for everyone else, and secondly that the objections of a large number of Queenslanders are based on the ridiculous notions that it will bring 25 hour days, no milk or eggs and faded furniture. I know - I work with them and I'm related to some of them 
Someone yesterday voiced the opinion that if we had daylight saving time we would have to be paid an hours overtime every day.........
If the arguments were put forward logically, and it was rejected by a majority of voters, maybe some of us would accept the decision more peacefully!
Someone yesterday voiced the opinion that if we had daylight saving time we would have to be paid an hours overtime every day.........If the arguments were put forward logically, and it was rejected by a majority of voters, maybe some of us would accept the decision more peacefully!
Oct 2nd 2007, 9:06 am
#26
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 510
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
can someone please inform me of any rational arguments against the change to daylight saving ?
Maybe just one argument that will make me think "hmmm....thats a good point - maybe daylight saving isn't such a good idea" ?
It seems to me that the only reason we are not changing, is because "people in regional queensland don't want to change". Well, I don't think that's a very good argument. It just seems to be a backwards way of thinking.... it is effectively standing in the way of progress.
No doubt the ancestors of those people who are against daylight saving were the ones who never accepted that the world wasn't flat.
Maybe just one argument that will make me think "hmmm....thats a good point - maybe daylight saving isn't such a good idea" ?
It seems to me that the only reason we are not changing, is because "people in regional queensland don't want to change". Well, I don't think that's a very good argument. It just seems to be a backwards way of thinking.... it is effectively standing in the way of progress.
No doubt the ancestors of those people who are against daylight saving were the ones who never accepted that the world wasn't flat.
1.It gets humid up here. Much more humid than Brisbane and SEQ. It's pretty yuk eating your dinner when the sun is still up, it's bloody humid, and you wish it was evening time so it could just be that little bit cooler.
2.The best time of the night is just that - the night. You know...we've got the warm, balmy tropical nights thing going on...it's part of the inherent appeal and pysche of NQ... it's kinda nice, it's a great atmosphere...having an extra hour would sort of kill that vibe off a bit.
I don't necessarily think opposing daylights savings is backwards. Some things are not necessarily "progress"...these daylight savings issues remind me of people complaining about shops being shut on Sundays...I actually think its great that people have a day off and we dont have an I -want- it -on -demand -24/7 culture! All depends on your concept of 'progress'.
Oct 2nd 2007, 9:16 am
#27
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 510
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
This kind of sums up the whole scenario, it may be a bit long & technical for those who just want an extra hour of daylight to sit & drink piss by the pool.
The problem in the ongoing debate about daylight saving in Queensland is that the rapidly growing urbanized coastal strip in southeastern Queensland lies so far to the east in relation to the rest of the state. Its southern location exacerbates the problem during summer.
In winter the sun rises in a line parallel to the Queensland coast with the result that the coastal cities have sunrise at much the same time. In summer the sun rises in a line parallel to the NSW coast with the result that the southeastern corner of Queensland has sunrise even earlier in relation to the rest of the state than would be expected from its eastern location.
Mean solar time is the average time of the day when the sun is at its highest point. Queensland is an enormous state and therefore has a wide variation in the mean solar times for its different regions. The mean solar time for Brisbane is 11:45am. By contrast the mean solar time for Cairns is about 40 minutes later at 12:25pm and Mt Isa a full hour later at 12:45pm.
Local authorities when choosing a time zone for a region try to ensure that the mean solar time will fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. This is the time band that will allow maximum utilization of the daylight hours for the majority of people in that region. All the major centres in Australia, with the exception of Brisbane, fall into this time band e.g. Adelaide 12:20pm, Darwin 12:45pm, Melbourne 12:25pm, Perth 12:20pm and Sydney 12:05pm.
Time zones allow local time to approximate the mean solar time. There has been a general trend to push the boundaries of time zones further west in order to create a permanent daylight saving time effect. Urban regions are more likely to embrace this than rural areas. As will be the case next year in Australia, there is also a worldwide trend to extend the period of daylight saving. The local authorities are aware of the benefits to lifestyle, energy savings, road safety and crime prevention that occur from this shift west.
The higher latitudes of the southern regions of Australia result in relatively longer daylight hours during summer and this allows some leeway in shifting the mean solar time to a band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm. During daylight saving the mean solar time for Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne will be an hour later at about 1:20pm. Darwin at its lower latitude does not have this leeway and its mean solar time remains at 12:45pm year round.
At latitudes of less than 28º (approximately the SEQ region) daylight hours vary less between summer and winter and there is very little leeway to shift the mean solar time outside of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm time band. This is well illustrated by comparing Cairns and Melbourne. Both are positioned along similar lines of longitude (145º E) and therefore have similar mean solar times (12:25pm). In Melbourne the sun rises at around 7:30am in July and around 5:15am in January without daylight saving. Daylight saving shifts sunrise in January to around 6:15am which is still over 75 minutes earlier than in winter. Cairns however has sunrise at around 6:00am in January and around 6:45am in July. If daylight saving were introduced in Cairns, sunrise would move to around 7:00am in January or at least 15 minutes later than in mid-winter!
In Brisbane shifting the clocks in summer would result in sunrise during January still being about 40 minutes earlier than in July. This time difference decreases rapidly north of Brisbane and becomes negative north of Bundaberg. This demonstrates how inappropriate and unworkable statewide daylight saving would be.
Most people would therefore agree that regions north of about 28º S do not need daylight saving provided that their mean solar times fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. SEQ is the only urbanized region in Australia (irrespective of latitude) where mean solar time does not fall between 12:00 pm and 1:00pm. As noted above, its location in the southern part of Queensland exacerbates the problem in summer. Thus the call from the southeastern corner is not so much about introducing daylight saving but rather about shifting the mean solar time for the region from 11:45am to 12:45pm. The rest of Queensland is already in the correct time zone and therefore opposes daylight saving as this would shift the mean solar time in that region to the band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm.
There is an argument that SEQ should be an hour ahead of the rest of Queensland year round based on a mean solar time of 12:45pm (the same as Darwin). The benefit would be that the last warm hour of winter sunshine could be utilized by more people as it would occur an hour later between 5pm to 6pm. The drawback would be that the sun would rise an hour later but even in mid-winter it would still be starting to get light by 7:10am at the latest. SEQ would then essentially then have the same times of daylight throughout the year that Mount Isa has at present.
Daylight saving and time zones are two very different issues.
Daylight saving is best utilized in the southern states which have latitudes of over 28º and longer summer days. Two time zones are required in states with large east-west dimensions irrespective of latitude whose range of solar time exceeds one hour or if the solar time range for the region is skewed to one side or the other of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm band.
Queensland fulfils both criteria for a state that needs two time zones. In its current time zone the mean solar time range is from 11:45am to12:55pm. The mean solar time is therefore skewed to the left (11:45am to 12:00pm) and has a range of greater than one hour.
Ten of the larger states in the USA ranging from Florida to Oregon have two time zones. All of them with the exception of Texas have a land area less than a quarter the size of Queensland. The western part of the Florida panhandle (a region of 200km by 60km representing less than 10% of the land area of Florida) is in a different time zone to the rest of the state. Although the state capital is only 75km to the east of this region, the residents of that region have decided that the advantages of being in the correct time zone outweigh the disadvantages of being in a different time zone to the capital and the rest of the state. Tennessee and Kentucky, unable to fit into one of the existing time zones without skewing their mean solar time band to one side or the other, have elected to have two time zones. The states are divided almost exactly in half by the time zone line. The states could have fitted into a single time zone with a half hour time difference to the states around them, but it would appear that two time zones is the preferred option.
Five of the ten provinces of Canada utilize two time zones. The province of British Columbia in Canada is of similar geographic size and shape as Queensland. The southeastern corner of British Columbia (an area no bigger than the Brisbane/Ipswich/Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast region) is one hour ahead of the rest of the province. I lived in the middle of British Columbia for five years and was unaware of any opposition to or controversy regarding the two time zones. There is no “deep chasm” - Premier Beatties words last week - dividing the people of British Columbia. The two time zones enable the people of British Columbia to live in their geographically correct time zone and utilize the daylight hours. British Columbia, as reflects its high latitude, also has daylight saving.
The business community in SEQ wants daylight saving while the business community in the rest of Queensland is against it. This reflects the view of the people in each of their regions and it is not surprising that each business community supports that regional view. Despite what some people think, business is not the prime mover for SEQ to adopt daylight saving. It is the people of southeastern Queensland.
The argument that two time zones would shift a Queensland/NSW problem to an intrastate problem has some merit but is insignificant when compared to the lifestyle, energy and road safety benefits that the people in SEQ would immediately have. One time zone for Queensland business may be convenient but it is not essential. In other parts of the world any inconvenience of having two time zones in one state is easily adapted to and accommodated.
It is not surprising that the new demographics, increasing urbanization and changing lifestyle demands in southeastern Queensland are creating the perfect storm that is increasing the momentum for changing the clocks in that region.
On the other hand, the fierce opposition to changing the clocks in the rest of the state will continue. The regions latitude and position in the correct time zone will ensure that this position will never change. The residents of the region have been unfairly maligned over their entirely appropriate and correct views on daylight saving in their region.
In summary, Queensland needs two time zones for at least the summer months based purely on its latitude and broad range of solar time.
Until the need for two time zones is recognized the perennial issue of daylight saving in Queensland will never be resolved.
The problem in the ongoing debate about daylight saving in Queensland is that the rapidly growing urbanized coastal strip in southeastern Queensland lies so far to the east in relation to the rest of the state. Its southern location exacerbates the problem during summer.
In winter the sun rises in a line parallel to the Queensland coast with the result that the coastal cities have sunrise at much the same time. In summer the sun rises in a line parallel to the NSW coast with the result that the southeastern corner of Queensland has sunrise even earlier in relation to the rest of the state than would be expected from its eastern location.
Mean solar time is the average time of the day when the sun is at its highest point. Queensland is an enormous state and therefore has a wide variation in the mean solar times for its different regions. The mean solar time for Brisbane is 11:45am. By contrast the mean solar time for Cairns is about 40 minutes later at 12:25pm and Mt Isa a full hour later at 12:45pm.
Local authorities when choosing a time zone for a region try to ensure that the mean solar time will fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. This is the time band that will allow maximum utilization of the daylight hours for the majority of people in that region. All the major centres in Australia, with the exception of Brisbane, fall into this time band e.g. Adelaide 12:20pm, Darwin 12:45pm, Melbourne 12:25pm, Perth 12:20pm and Sydney 12:05pm.
Time zones allow local time to approximate the mean solar time. There has been a general trend to push the boundaries of time zones further west in order to create a permanent daylight saving time effect. Urban regions are more likely to embrace this than rural areas. As will be the case next year in Australia, there is also a worldwide trend to extend the period of daylight saving. The local authorities are aware of the benefits to lifestyle, energy savings, road safety and crime prevention that occur from this shift west.
The higher latitudes of the southern regions of Australia result in relatively longer daylight hours during summer and this allows some leeway in shifting the mean solar time to a band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm. During daylight saving the mean solar time for Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne will be an hour later at about 1:20pm. Darwin at its lower latitude does not have this leeway and its mean solar time remains at 12:45pm year round.
At latitudes of less than 28º (approximately the SEQ region) daylight hours vary less between summer and winter and there is very little leeway to shift the mean solar time outside of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm time band. This is well illustrated by comparing Cairns and Melbourne. Both are positioned along similar lines of longitude (145º E) and therefore have similar mean solar times (12:25pm). In Melbourne the sun rises at around 7:30am in July and around 5:15am in January without daylight saving. Daylight saving shifts sunrise in January to around 6:15am which is still over 75 minutes earlier than in winter. Cairns however has sunrise at around 6:00am in January and around 6:45am in July. If daylight saving were introduced in Cairns, sunrise would move to around 7:00am in January or at least 15 minutes later than in mid-winter!
In Brisbane shifting the clocks in summer would result in sunrise during January still being about 40 minutes earlier than in July. This time difference decreases rapidly north of Brisbane and becomes negative north of Bundaberg. This demonstrates how inappropriate and unworkable statewide daylight saving would be.
Most people would therefore agree that regions north of about 28º S do not need daylight saving provided that their mean solar times fall between 12:00pm and 1:00pm. SEQ is the only urbanized region in Australia (irrespective of latitude) where mean solar time does not fall between 12:00 pm and 1:00pm. As noted above, its location in the southern part of Queensland exacerbates the problem in summer. Thus the call from the southeastern corner is not so much about introducing daylight saving but rather about shifting the mean solar time for the region from 11:45am to 12:45pm. The rest of Queensland is already in the correct time zone and therefore opposes daylight saving as this would shift the mean solar time in that region to the band between 1:00pm and 2:00pm.
There is an argument that SEQ should be an hour ahead of the rest of Queensland year round based on a mean solar time of 12:45pm (the same as Darwin). The benefit would be that the last warm hour of winter sunshine could be utilized by more people as it would occur an hour later between 5pm to 6pm. The drawback would be that the sun would rise an hour later but even in mid-winter it would still be starting to get light by 7:10am at the latest. SEQ would then essentially then have the same times of daylight throughout the year that Mount Isa has at present.
Daylight saving and time zones are two very different issues.
Daylight saving is best utilized in the southern states which have latitudes of over 28º and longer summer days. Two time zones are required in states with large east-west dimensions irrespective of latitude whose range of solar time exceeds one hour or if the solar time range for the region is skewed to one side or the other of the 12:00pm to 1:00pm band.
Queensland fulfils both criteria for a state that needs two time zones. In its current time zone the mean solar time range is from 11:45am to12:55pm. The mean solar time is therefore skewed to the left (11:45am to 12:00pm) and has a range of greater than one hour.
Ten of the larger states in the USA ranging from Florida to Oregon have two time zones. All of them with the exception of Texas have a land area less than a quarter the size of Queensland. The western part of the Florida panhandle (a region of 200km by 60km representing less than 10% of the land area of Florida) is in a different time zone to the rest of the state. Although the state capital is only 75km to the east of this region, the residents of that region have decided that the advantages of being in the correct time zone outweigh the disadvantages of being in a different time zone to the capital and the rest of the state. Tennessee and Kentucky, unable to fit into one of the existing time zones without skewing their mean solar time band to one side or the other, have elected to have two time zones. The states are divided almost exactly in half by the time zone line. The states could have fitted into a single time zone with a half hour time difference to the states around them, but it would appear that two time zones is the preferred option.
Five of the ten provinces of Canada utilize two time zones. The province of British Columbia in Canada is of similar geographic size and shape as Queensland. The southeastern corner of British Columbia (an area no bigger than the Brisbane/Ipswich/Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast region) is one hour ahead of the rest of the province. I lived in the middle of British Columbia for five years and was unaware of any opposition to or controversy regarding the two time zones. There is no “deep chasm” - Premier Beatties words last week - dividing the people of British Columbia. The two time zones enable the people of British Columbia to live in their geographically correct time zone and utilize the daylight hours. British Columbia, as reflects its high latitude, also has daylight saving.
The business community in SEQ wants daylight saving while the business community in the rest of Queensland is against it. This reflects the view of the people in each of their regions and it is not surprising that each business community supports that regional view. Despite what some people think, business is not the prime mover for SEQ to adopt daylight saving. It is the people of southeastern Queensland.
The argument that two time zones would shift a Queensland/NSW problem to an intrastate problem has some merit but is insignificant when compared to the lifestyle, energy and road safety benefits that the people in SEQ would immediately have. One time zone for Queensland business may be convenient but it is not essential. In other parts of the world any inconvenience of having two time zones in one state is easily adapted to and accommodated.
It is not surprising that the new demographics, increasing urbanization and changing lifestyle demands in southeastern Queensland are creating the perfect storm that is increasing the momentum for changing the clocks in that region.
On the other hand, the fierce opposition to changing the clocks in the rest of the state will continue. The regions latitude and position in the correct time zone will ensure that this position will never change. The residents of the region have been unfairly maligned over their entirely appropriate and correct views on daylight saving in their region.
In summary, Queensland needs two time zones for at least the summer months based purely on its latitude and broad range of solar time.
Until the need for two time zones is recognized the perennial issue of daylight saving in Queensland will never be resolved.
Oct 2nd 2007, 10:44 am
#28
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Gold Coast Hinterland
Posts: 2,359
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
There is an argument that SEQ should be an hour ahead of the rest of Queensland year round based on a mean solar time of 12:45pm (the same as Darwin). The benefit would be that the last warm hour of winter sunshine could be utilized by more people as it would occur an hour later between 5pm to 6pm. The drawback would be that the sun would rise an hour later but even in mid-winter it would still be starting to get light by 7:10am at the latest. SEQ would then essentially then have the same times of daylight throughout the year that Mount Isa has at present.
This has to be the ideal solution.
SEQ doesn't need to change the clocks twice a year. People living near the QLD/NSW border survive the change of time zones in summer. A year-round time difference further north would easy in comparison.
This has to be the ideal solution.
SEQ doesn't need to change the clocks twice a year. People living near the QLD/NSW border survive the change of time zones in summer. A year-round time difference further north would easy in comparison.
Oct 2nd 2007, 1:04 pm
#29
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 65,493
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
I don't know the figures and can't be arsed to find them (probably someone will 
) but I would have thought that of the total population of QLD, the majority are in SEQ? I fully agree that the majority of the state do not need or want daylight saving and personally in the grand scheme of things I couldn't care less but if the majority of folk in SEQ want it then surely it should at least be up for a proper debate and referendum.
It affects us because hubby works in NSW but that was his choice and we deal with it, no big deal just an irritant but I would think for businesses it must cause problems.
If there was a large section of "empty" state up to the border it wouldn't be an issue but many many businesses, especially on the Gold Coast cover Tweed and surroundings.
) but I would have thought that of the total population of QLD, the majority are in SEQ? I fully agree that the majority of the state do not need or want daylight saving and personally in the grand scheme of things I couldn't care less but if the majority of folk in SEQ want it then surely it should at least be up for a proper debate and referendum.It affects us because hubby works in NSW but that was his choice and we deal with it, no big deal just an irritant but I would think for businesses it must cause problems.
If there was a large section of "empty" state up to the border it wouldn't be an issue but many many businesses, especially on the Gold Coast cover Tweed and surroundings.
Oct 2nd 2007, 4:35 pm
#30
Unspoilt by progress.....
Joined: May 2007
Location: Redcliffe, nr Brisbane
Posts: 320
Re: Bligh says "No" despite a clear majority
I must admit that this whole argument about whether daylight saving should apply in Queensland etc does amuse me. For what it's worth (bugger all I am sure) my view is that I really don't care! I do, however, find it amusing that some people cite it as the main reason for moving to Perth, say, as opposed to QLD.
Perhaps it's the hours that my wife and I work but it has no bearing on us at all and if daylight saving was introduced I don't think we would notice it.
Interestingly, when I was in Romania 26 years ago they did not have any daylight saving at all - but what they did do instead, was twice a year adjust their lifestyle so that they all started work / school etc an hour earlier but without changing the clocks. But I guess that is a form of daylight saving.
Perhaps it's the hours that my wife and I work but it has no bearing on us at all and if daylight saving was introduced I don't think we would notice it.
Interestingly, when I was in Romania 26 years ago they did not have any daylight saving at all - but what they did do instead, was twice a year adjust their lifestyle so that they all started work / school etc an hour earlier but without changing the clocks. But I guess that is a form of daylight saving.