What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Apr 19th 2009, 4:32 pm
#137
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,542
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
.....Here is a new flash. If my wife and kids were in danger, I would not run away and leave them to be raped and oppressed while I wander the globe checking out the country with the most generous social welfare benefits.
will get to watch in amazement as opportunistic criminals who will never contribute anything to Australia will jump the queue to the good life down under.
will get to watch in amazement as opportunistic criminals who will never contribute anything to Australia will jump the queue to the good life down under.
I do not feel sorry for these criminals at all, in fact I'd be in favour of the Australian Navy blowing the boats up themselves as the are entering Australian waters illegally.
There are plenty of countries these people could go to but they are deliberately coming to countries like Australia and the UK to 'steal' the benefits that are on offer in our soft-touch societies.
There are plenty of countries these people could go to but they are deliberately coming to countries like Australia and the UK to 'steal' the benefits that are on offer in our soft-touch societies.
Perhaps they want to work and send back money to their families rather than rely on the super-generous benefits systems, and are likely to get paid comparatively more in a fully-developed economy than a next-door developing one.
There are valid arguments for controlling immigration and pushing back against economic migrants and people should not be labelled bigots for expousing them, however both of your posts contain nasty, small-minded and somewhat bigoted content ("will never contribute anything to Australia", "blowing the boats up") which does not strengthen your argument and makes you look like small inconsequential little people, with no ability to empathise with others plight.
Apr 19th 2009, 4:43 pm
#138
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
I read all this thread. Many words about Aussies, Brits, immigrants, human rights... but lets focus on the source of the problem: Afgans. They came from a country where:
- 1/3 of GDP comes from drug business, rate of unemployment is 40% partially because many people are nomads. They do not get used to work 8 hr/day 5 d./week and they simple will not do that (but they still have to eat, clothe, soon they will realize they need cars, tvs. Guess how they will earn money for that)
- 79% of people are illiterate (probably those in boat are too) - not a real skilled migrant, should we pay for their education, would the want to learn?
- only 25% of kids ages 7-14 and 8% of those 15-18 yr old (in 1990) have access to education - so probably all this guys in boat know about world has been said to them by fellow Taliban. Do not expect them to understand "Australian way of live"
- many mans and even boys are running around with AK-47... Quote from wiki "Afghans display pride in their religion, country, ancestry, and above all, their independence. Like other highlanders, Afghans are regarded with mingled apprehension and condescension, for their high regard for personal honor, for their clan loyalty and for their readiness to carry and use arms to settle disputes"
plus...
- all mens in boat, who have left their wives and children in Afghanistan left them for sure death (woman have no rights to work or even leave home without a man in Afghanistan). Instead of saving their families they decided to take a long journey to Australia... this says a lot about their attitude.
And now the questions:
Would you like to have neighbors like this?
Would you like your kids meet this guys in the evening?
Would you like government spend extra money for social benefits for them just to stop them committing crimes?
O course not all guys from Afghanistan are bad guys, however statistically most of them are so before government let them in each case should be carefully investigated and if it wont be possible the risk shouldn't be taken.
I understand the emotions, but it is always wise to get as much information as possible (at least google) before making any decisions or statement.
- 1/3 of GDP comes from drug business, rate of unemployment is 40% partially because many people are nomads. They do not get used to work 8 hr/day 5 d./week and they simple will not do that (but they still have to eat, clothe, soon they will realize they need cars, tvs. Guess how they will earn money for that)
- 79% of people are illiterate (probably those in boat are too) - not a real skilled migrant, should we pay for their education, would the want to learn?
- only 25% of kids ages 7-14 and 8% of those 15-18 yr old (in 1990) have access to education - so probably all this guys in boat know about world has been said to them by fellow Taliban. Do not expect them to understand "Australian way of live"
- many mans and even boys are running around with AK-47... Quote from wiki "Afghans display pride in their religion, country, ancestry, and above all, their independence. Like other highlanders, Afghans are regarded with mingled apprehension and condescension, for their high regard for personal honor, for their clan loyalty and for their readiness to carry and use arms to settle disputes"
plus...
- all mens in boat, who have left their wives and children in Afghanistan left them for sure death (woman have no rights to work or even leave home without a man in Afghanistan). Instead of saving their families they decided to take a long journey to Australia... this says a lot about their attitude.
And now the questions:
Would you like to have neighbors like this?
Would you like your kids meet this guys in the evening?
Would you like government spend extra money for social benefits for them just to stop them committing crimes?
O course not all guys from Afghanistan are bad guys, however statistically most of them are so before government let them in each case should be carefully investigated and if it wont be possible the risk shouldn't be taken.
I understand the emotions, but it is always wise to get as much information as possible (at least google) before making any decisions or statement.
If it was not Afghans i expect you would sprout similar extremely judgmental generalizations.
A lot of refugees accepted by Australia over the past decade have had education interrupted owing to war like situations in their countries leading to displacement and what that entails.
Such situations are not contusive to finding employment in how we know it.
Does not mean the people are work shy and children often do well at education..of course there are always examples to the contary but that applies in every thing in life does it not?
You are right in stating that the Afghan are proud people and so??
And yes opium growing is wide spread ,but funny enough it was almost unknown when the Taliban had power as it would have meant a death sentence.Now with this present corrupt regime that has almost no authority outside of Kabul various almost serfdoms or in cases limited law and order prevails.
I would have no issues what so ever having Afghans neighbours and in fact would probably be a big improvement on the non communicative lot at present.
To meet these guys in the evening..really man where are you at?
.
Apr 19th 2009, 6:14 pm
#141
Fighting my corner
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 11,948
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Their current practice is to tax the poppy farmers for a percentage of their profits. There is also evidence that they have been stockpiling tons of opium to push up the market price.
Apr 19th 2009, 7:50 pm
#142
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Apr 19th 2009, 8:24 pm
#143
---
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,994
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
This thread confuses me somewhat- people are passing judgement on the actions and motives of the 'boat people' and insinuating that their desperate plight (because torching a boat you're sat in is pretty desperate, right? because leaving your wife and children and heading off on an 18 month journey to somewhere you may only have heard a few snippets about from someone taking your life savings is pretty desperate, yes?) is somehow suspect. It's a human situation so of course it's complex and multi dimensional and rah rah rah. Of course those people on the boat will be complex, may have made decisions hard for us to figure morally and so on- because they're human. Why can't we just assume these people need help until/unless we learn otherwise? why do we assume that a 'real' refugee has to be a good person and a dirt poor goat herd? We don;t need to approve of these poeple for them to be legitimate asylum seekers, nor, as lay people, should we assume that because we don't understand the process (ie why or how Australia became the ultimate destination) they deserve to be bombed by the navy, ffs!
Apr 19th 2009, 8:27 pm
#144
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...il_28_June.htm
The use of the word 'illegal' or 'unlawful' to describe asylum seekers entering a country without authority is standard international practice, not least by signatory states to the Refugees Convention.
This is because the Refugees Convention (Article 31) explicitly refers to the "illegal entry or presence" of refugees who arrive in the territory of a country "without authorisation".
This is because the Refugees Convention (Article 31) explicitly refers to the "illegal entry or presence" of refugees who arrive in the territory of a country "without authorisation".
Apr 19th 2009, 8:30 pm
#145
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
They have each paid many thousands of dollars in flights and boat trips to get here.
That money in their original county, and in the countries they have travelled through, is a LOT of money.
Apr 19th 2009, 8:55 pm
#146
---
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,994
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
I don't doubt that. Does that make them ineligible for refugee status? Does a genuine refugee have to be dirt poor and helpless? Can't a refugee also have some cash and be a chancer? Just a thought.
Apr 19th 2009, 9:19 pm
#147
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 80
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
From experience probably not,but say you are correct thats just what the Australian economy needs sending money to Afghanistan to buy more weapons to attack allied troops.
Apr 19th 2009, 9:27 pm
#148
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Personally I think it is wrong that the richer refugees should be allowed to push the poor ones to the bottom, and maybe stop those without those financial means from getting a place that may have been available to them.
But then, we appear to be in a world where those with money can trample on those without, and so many people seem to think it is OK.
Apr 19th 2009, 11:13 pm
#149
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Well, you would have to dispute it with the Government, which is where my quote came from.
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...il_28_June.htm
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...il_28_June.htm
This does not infer that they are free in society nor that the claim will be accepted and if termed not to be a refugee then could be termed an illegal entrant but not before then.
Once judgement is passed they can then be removed from this country.(providing there are no grounds for appeal)
This is fact and this is law.
The term illegal entrants is an emotive term used by some sections of the gutter UK press and certain governments not accountable to international law.(Malaysia termed the Vietnamese boat people this decades ago, but to Australia,USA and Canada they accepted them as refugees post hast as a result of Malaysian threats to expel them from it's territory.
So until other wise proven they are Asylum Seekers.Illegal immigrants enter a country undetected or they remain once a valid visa has expired.
Apr 19th 2009, 11:25 pm
#150
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2008
Location: Perth
Posts: 6,781
Re: What has happened to humanity - Afghan Refugees, Perth?
Well, you would have to dispute it with the Government, which is where my quote came from.
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...il_28_June.htm
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...il_28_June.htm
