Wol

>> Ahh, the Straits Times, that Bastion of freedom of speech. <<

I know where you're coming from, but for accuracy of press information I wouldn't push the Australian media that much!

>> Rog, no offence mate, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the reason for the low drugs rate in Singapore is a combination of it being a Police State/ dictatorship, a strong social framework and the fact that you will get caught. <<

And your point is??


>> It is a well held view amongst academics that the Death Penalty has no value. <<

Academics? I rest my case!

>> Anyway, I've tried to get some numbers off the internet, but didn't have time to find much, but below is what I got. At the end of the day I wish people would be honest and admit that the Death penalty doesn't effect crime. Just say it, you like criminals to be killed. <<

I would have to agree that the death penalty doesn't "effect" crime! Criminals do. Having got that cheap riposte out of my system, and also not having the time to Google away all night, I would agree that you have to be very very careful when analysing the statistics on this. One example is that it's more difficult to get a murder conviction when the penalty is so final, so the pre- and -post abolition numbers bear little relation to each other. Also the statistical definitions tend to be changed.

I have seen no figures as to the murder rates in the Uk before and after abolition with all the factors like definitions and homicide categories being equalised. But I just don't remember the papers being full of homicide stories in the fifties to anything like the extent they are now.

Anyway, as I said before, I don't think the DP is appropriate for the case under discussion: only for murder one. Having said that, it's Singapore's right to apply it under their jurisdiction.

Luke I Amyofath

[QUOTE=Rog Williams One example is that it's more difficult to get a murder conviction when the penalty is so final, .[/QUOTE]
If you include countries that have the death penalty such as many states in USA you are incorrect.
The death penalty comes as part of the sentencing stage which follows the conviction therefore a jury doesnt have to be laden with guilt when deliberating thinking that an innocent man may be put to death.
In saying that, many an innocent man HAS been put to his death and its one more reason that the death penalty should not be an option.
Personally I think that life in jail would be a far worse sentence, I would sooner be dead than live my life inside.

ABCDiamond

From Amnesty International: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engAMR510101998
The state of Texas executes more people than any other jurisdiction in the Western world. The death toll is astounding: of the 74 executions carried out in the United States of America (USA) during 1997, one-half (37) occurred in Texas, a record number since the reintroduction of the death penalty. Between the resumption of executions in 1977 and the end of 1997, the USA put to death 432 prisoners nationwide, with Texas alone accounting for one-third of the total (144).


From: Texas Crime Rates 1960 - 2000 http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

Texas Murder Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants

1970 11.6
1971 12.1
1972 12.4
1973 12.8
1974 13.7
1975 13.4 Death Penalty brought back in 1975
1995 9.0
1996 7.7
1997 6.8
1998 6.8
1999 6.1
2000 5.9 Murder rate halved ? There may be other reasons for this.

ABCDiamond

The UK Murder rate figures can be seen at http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib...9/rp99-056.pdf

Check on the figures on pages 9 and 10, and it shows a rise in the murder rate from 6.8 per million in 1965 (325 total) to 14.1 per million in 1997. (738 total)
Doubling since the death penalty was withdrawn.

Current figures are showing about 850 murders, ie 15% higher than 1997.

NedKelly

The pervert should have been shot years ago. If for no other reason than his music is crap.

Wol

Thanks.

I think this argument is a rather futile one in some ways: I have a gut reaction that the DP is suitable for some premeditated murders and must help as a deterrent: others' gut feeling is that it is wrong under any circumstances. N'err the twain shall meet.

ABCDiamond

I agree completely.

In some cases it will act as a deterrent, when the original act is considered carefully, but in cases where it isn't thought out, it has little effect, if any.

When looked at from the aspect of murder, I sometimes wonder about an example such as:

A serious crime is committed, with a penalty of say 15 years IF caught. But kill the only witness, and the penalty may only be 20 years, and maybe less chance of being caught. ?

Having known a murder victim, and there was absolute zero doubt about guilt, I do believe in the Death Penalty for that specific offence., but not where there is even the slightest doubt.

This whole thing about one country trying to override another countries laws, however is a different matter. As I said before, how would we like it if Singapore tried to force us to change our laws and make them tougher. (OK, bad example, many of us would agree )

arkon

Thing is if it was premeditated murder, it means you really thought about it, planned it and therefore really really wanted to kill the person, surely in this circumstance no potential punishment would deter.

I personally think after giving this subject a lot of carefull thought to come up with a sensible punishment that was more likely to deter than death and be slightly more moral than executing someone. Cut off the guys meat and two veg!! No man wants to lose his horn so what greater deterrent and punishment than a like time with no fishing tackle! Gets my vote. Not sure what woman would miss that bad though.

BartSimpson

No thats wrong... we have to look at the trade deficit and surplus first... if they rely on us they cannot say, and if we do then we wont mind them tell us!


- Bart

BartSimpson

Then you would oppose Euthanasia my friend! Is that right?
- Bart

arkon

Not sure what the youth in asia have to do with anything?

BartSimpson

No No I was talking about sentimental thing here....
Generally people who oppose death penalty are soft and I thought they might dislike the concept of Euthanasia as well... again that is also killing...
The only difference between I see between both is, one is Mercy other needs Mercy ...

arkon

Well noones ever said I was soft or liberal, I'm a product of thatcher and normally quite right winged. six months ago I would have executed you for stealing my car. But then something wonderous happened.......We had our first and last child, Although I'm very right winged in outlook there is noway I'd support the DP anymore. Not fair on the family IMO. Chop his nuts off.

BartSimpson

Excuse me... I did not mean it to be hard on you.

Way to goo... Mr. Howard now chop that bro's nails...
of 1st hand = he was involved in durgs
and 2nd hand = for execution of poor chap... (hes to be blamed)