foxall22

Hi,

As a UK teacher now working in Australia I wouldn't mind clearing a few things up.

In the UK a law was introduced that a teacher must have 10% non-contact time. This equates to half a day. And in many schools, particularly primary, it just doesn't happen as people are sick, you have to attend meetings/courses, have duties etc.

To give my 2 cents worth I think behaviour is an increasing problem because any effective sanctions available to teachers have gone (and no, I'm not pro-cane!). In addition to this, once upon a time the threat of 'if this continues, I will be forced to tell your parent(s)' would fill many students with dread, now the response 'I'm gonna tell my mum/dad you tried to give me a detention and they'll come in and bash you' or alternatively they just don't give a toss as the parents don't have the time/authority to discipline appropriately.

Obviously I'm generalising but you get the idea!

I am also fundamentally insulted about the salaries here in WA. At least in the UK the payscale offers prospects. I am used to working 7.30-5.30 on school grounds, going home and assessing/preparing for 1-2 hours each night, and then each Sunday was destined for planning for the following week, so another 4-6 hours. And no, I'm not a perfectionist, no I'm not a slow worker. I just see teaching as a very important profession and like to do a good job. The fact that there is very little compulsory paperwork here is great for conscientious people who will work to the same level (and just be grateful they don't have to record their every thought on paper) but it gives others the room to be lazy.

I have done 'relief' in a range of schools now and I haven't seen one teacher take work home. Teachers have more non-contact time here than the UK and that's great too, but it doesn't make up for the HUGE salary drop that reflects a low 'value' in the teaching profession. Similarly, having low TEE requirements for teacher training here means that it's a possibility for students' 'Plan B' eg "Ahh, didn't get enough for x, I'll just do teaching instead". Teaching should be a vocation in my belief.

I believe the salary issue also explains the drop in male applicants. Studies have shown that more 18-25 males are attracted to potential high salary careers than 18-25 females.

Regardless, teaching standards will not increase until TEE requirements are raised, and salaries are increased dramatically.

Does anyone agree?

Gemma

OzTennis

Paradoxically, despite what you say you don't expect any mediocrity in the teaching profession? We all know how 'if you pay peanuts you get' ends. Name a profession (all are higher paid incidentally) which does not have mediocrity?

An analogy to show what I think we're up against - give Mourinho (Chelsea's manager for the football illiterate) Accrington Stanley's wages budget, targets to achieve, tell him how to pick a team and formation, get players parents coming to see him at the training ground or phoning him up, writing letters and swearing at him or physically attacking him and see how he gets on.

His players also have a shorter attention span than those in the past and if he can't entertain them and hold their interest like Big Brother or X Factor or some other reality tripe increasingly dished up then he's going to be struggling. (Real Madrid here we come). Just to add a touch more intended hilarity to the analogy and just taking the mick, Mourinho, as if that wasn't bad enough, also has more female footballers in his squad and they are over half his staff now.

Oh, he's also going to be criticised at the 'end of the day', 'at this particular moment in time' (footballers are prone to say things like this because they've left school early to earn their millions) for having a small proportion of mediocre players in his large squad. And if he has the temerity to ask for a pay rise, even nearly in line with inflation that will only be granted if his contract is changed to increase his duties and make him more accountable and the number of promoted posts is greatly reduced (the McCrone agreement in Scotland). Of course all references to he includes she because PC'ness is another thing 'he' has to deal with.

Whither society when a dedicated, hard working classroom teacher earns as much in a year as an oaf like Jade Goody can earn as appearance money for turning up somewhere for a few minutes to open an envelope?

OzTennis

OzTennis

Yes! (I've said enough)

OzTennis

esperanza

Me too! I can't comment on anything in Oz as I'm not there yet (soon!!) but you're absolutely right about the entry requirements & salaries.
It should also be easier to get rid of teachers who aren't performing - I know plenty of sub-average teachers who just muddle along in their jobs for years. Everyone else has to pull that much harder to pick up the slack.

Re marking: I know there are ways to make marking easier for teachers - eg peer assessment (can't rely on this all the time though) or quick quizzes (not always suitable for all topics) - and this should certainly be used alongside 'regular' marking. But I still feel that teachers have nowhere near enough time to do their jobs properly. That and a colossal lack of respect from some parents, who pass on said disrespect to their progeny.

And I can't believe someone said it must be easier marking seven year olds' work than secondary! It's just different - it still needs to be leveled/graded/commented on in exactly the same way. (And if you're thinking that it's easier because they write less, then set your top sets word limits! They hate it!)

NKSK version 2

I agree with all of this.

And yes, I expect there to be mediocre teachers in every school also.
But I also feel that if it is so bad then teachers should leave - teach abroad where the money is better, go to private schools where the kids are (normally) better behaved and parents more interested. Or, dare I say it, leave the profession? (I accept that this isn't easy to do when you're mid 30s with kids.)

Schools haven't suddenly become disaster zones. I remember finding bottles of cider in the toilets when I started teaching in 1992. You can't really use the argument that people are trapped because it has suddenly become a lot worse.

And.......your analogy is fine but in football, it's top of the league or nowhere. In education -at least within education - there is an acceptance that you can't make a silk purse......and it is the value added which is important.

NKSK version 2

Salaries in WA teaching certainly are shocking. But there are signs that the govt is starting to panic - because nobody wants to teach anymore. They can't staff schools.

NKSK version 2

It's easier in my experience - simply because they produce less.

How can 5 lines of writing be harder to mark than 5 pages?

foxall22

Sometimes 5 lines of writing can be initially illegible. It takes a long time to decode what it says, and then you have to analyse what phonetic misconceptions the writer has, and how you're going to give constructive but balanced feedback.

Not saying this always takes longer than marking 5 pages, but I know of many teachers who have spent over an hour on 1 piece of Year 2 short-writing SATS tasks.

But yes, I would say the marking generally takes longer in secondary than primary, but I would say the prep in primary takes longer than secondary. Let's just say that all good teachers have to work long hours!

Gemma

OzTennis

(long post warning)

I agree will much of this, some comments:

Well in football there are European places for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th (in England), cup competitions as well as the league, payments from the league according to points gained, city or regional rivals to finish above, last year's position to be bettered, relegation to be avoided, manager's job to be retained, supporters to be entertained, match fees for having a match televised, 4 leagues to move up (and down), international caps to be earned by players, transfers to other clubs to be won, etc, etc - it's not just about being top of the league.

To overcome shortages in certain subject areas (eg Mathematics and Science) the (UK) government introduced higher salaries for these subjects to encourage new teachers into the profession. In theory there should be differences in salaries according to how 'challenging' a school is. This will never happen but is it fair and right that a teacher in leafy Surrey with a comparatively easy job should get the same as someone who is (trying) to teach in parts of the east end of London (Newton Mearns vs Easterhouse in Glasgow; Wester Hailes vs Morningside in Edinburgh etc)?

It won't happen because the schools where teachers would be entitled to a higher salary would say that they are being stigmatised. Imagine the furore if the government said that teachers in the lowest 25% according to the league tables are going to be paid more! Many jobs have a London allowance, why not a socially deprived area allowance (how PC is that!!).

I don't envy my colleagues who are just trying to get through to the end of the lesson without being sworn at or physically assaulted. Some inspector will breeze in and say the answer is to make your lessons more challenging or stimulating - OK, show me, 25 times a week, year in, year out, not a one-off.

No one would say that teaching wasn't difficult in the past and no one can surely deny that it has become more challenging? You started in the 90's, I started in the 70's and the job now and then is chalk and cheese and far more difficult.

Very much generalising on then and now:

1970's - whole class teaching, chalk and talk, corporal punishment available as the ultimate sanction (which I used twice in total), more respect for teachers from parents and pupils and society in general, a harder profession to get into, fewer distractions outside school, children in general starting smoking, drinking and other 'ings' much later, less technology, fewer single parent families, more respect for teachers from society, fewer league tables and government targets, streaming, unruly pupils excluded ...................

2000's - different levels of attainment and different courses in the same class (obviously I'm talking secondary and in Scotland for example a 3rd/4th year class can have Credit, General and Foundation pupils; 5th/6th year class can have Access, Intermediate 1, Intermediate 2 and Higher pupils, 1st and 2nd year classes aren't streamed); it is expected of you to almost tailor each lesson for each pupil individually, league tables, government targets, the ultimate sanction is to give a punishment exercise, no exclusion, inclusion is the thing, no/little streaming of classes, mixed ability, the 'you can't do anything, I know my rights' generation, earlier smoking, drinking and other 'ings, you can't take my mobile phone or iPod off me (yes, I can School Rules, my mummy will take the school to the European Court of Human Rights ....................................... zzzz You get the picture.

I'm not saying what happened in the 70's/80's was right or better, I'm just illustrating how much harder and challenging it is now.

OzTennis

Nomore

Just found out today that my 7 year old in year 3 marks his own homework at school. I do know that in the UK the teacher took the homework home and marked it herself.
He said the whole class and year exchange books and mark each others work as the teacher reads out the answers.

I don't know if this is lazy or something that is acceptable, but i find it all rather strange.

OzTennis

A UK inspector advised me many years ago that pupils should be encouraged to mark their own work wherever possible. It has certainly been common practice for a long time (in secondary schools in Scotland is all I can comment on). The reasons for this are things like to encourage oneself to be critical, to have a stake in their work, to work co-operatively and so on - you know how educational 'experts' can dress it up in this sort of jargon. The inspector didn't mention anything about teacher being lazy.

Tap self marking into Google and see what comes up. This one hit shows that self marking is favoured by some teachers to ease their workload (which is different to being lazy):

http://www.schoolhistory.co.uk/forum...opic=8154&st=0

OzTennis

swimmingsaintee

my 2 younger children who attend a good wee village school in Scotland regularly mark their peers work. I don't think that means that their teacher isn't on the ball tho', and i wouldn't be worried about that. They enjoy the marking - sometimes I think they remember any mistakes better. It's one thing being corrected by your teacher, but hey if your mate corrects your spelling then you don't forget it next time!

esperanza

Certainly ALL marking should not be done this way, but peer-assessment definitely has its place, and is valuable in its own right. It should be a part of overall assessment alongside the teacher marking & assessing individual pieces of work & overall performance.

sme

When my children were taught in the UK this was a regular occurence especially with marking spellings. I didn't have a problem with it then and I wouldn't have issues with it in WA either.
I guess we've been lucky in both the UK and WA with regard to the quality of the childrens schooling. I don't know if going to catholic schools makes alot of difference but I do feel they focus on the person as a whole and the contribution they can make to society (which has to be good in my book )

NKSK version 2

I don't have problem with it as long as there is no interpretation necessary.

It can work with older children when interpretation is necessary but it is much more difficult to get it right.