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Solar Power - Battery Storage

Solar Power - Battery Storage

Old Mar 1st 2014, 10:21 am
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Default Solar Power - Battery Storage

We are planning on installing solar panels in our house and I was wondering if any one here has installed Batteries for storage? What we have in mind is a system that stores the energy harnessed during the day, for offgrid use.

I met a Solar Company today in Perth and they said this is very expensive - but something they are looking into the future. My folks have had this overseas for their farm and functions perfectly - 100% off grid use.

I note Tesla in the US is starting mass production of Lithium - ion batteries for this, can this be imported or they have to comply with some Australian specifications? I am assuming this is something that can recover it's costs in a short time.
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Old Mar 1st 2014, 1:55 pm
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by JOE2010
We are planning on installing solar panels in our house and I was wondering if any one here has installed Batteries for storage? What we have in mind is a system that stores the energy harnessed during the day, for offgrid use.

I met a Solar Company today in Perth and they said this is very expensive - but something they are looking into the future. My folks have had this overseas for their farm and functions perfectly - 100% off grid use.

I note Tesla in the US is starting mass production of Lithium - ion batteries for this, can this be imported or they have to comply with some Australian specifications? I am assuming this is something that can recover it's costs in a short time.
It's very possible and I don't see why it should be so expensive - you could easily use traditional lead-acid batteries and not have to go the Lipo route.

This video shows something similar, not solar but the principal is the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka0MfipmdBw

Great guy BTW - an electrical engineering guru

Last edited by Amazulu; Mar 1st 2014 at 1:58 pm.
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Old Mar 1st 2014, 2:24 pm
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

The most economical battery application is the traditional 6/12 volt lead acid 'golf cart batteries' which can be wired in various series/parallel hook ups depending on your panel and inverter ratings. From there you can pay more for gel filled or the even more high capacity 'solar' batteries which will get pricey. Either way they will require periodic maintenance to maintain highest efficiency, along with a back up generator for high use periods and bulk charging.
There is a lot of good information online to help you.
Good Luck.
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Old Mar 3rd 2014, 8:36 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

We looked seriously at this and my techy engineer and environmental hubby concluded that the battery technology was not yet good enough to justify the investment. Instead we went with a 5KW standard system with the intention to convert to a hybrid when Lithium batteries were better developed for solar. It was going to cost us double the price and OH felt the technology would be obsolete (old batteries) in a couple of years.
We do intend to upgrade when lithium is standard and also plan on running an electric car from it.
V happy with our sunpower solar system so far
Suggest you check out

http://www.solarquotes.com.au/

who are a mine of very useful information and saved us a lot of money
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Old Mar 3rd 2014, 10:33 pm
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Lithium-ion batteries seem to be expensive and nobody seems to be sure about how long they will last. I often wonder why someone hasn't investigated NiFe (Nickel Iron) batteries for this purpose. The initial cost is high and they are very heavy making them unsuitable for cars, planes etc but for use in a home or factory they would be ideal because they last a very long time. They used to use them in Diesel Railway engines and may still do, I do remember reading that when the first British Rail Diesel Engine, I think it was called a Deltic was taken out of service and sent to the Museum they only component that was still as good as new and didn't need an overhaul was the NiFe Battery. I've just had a look on Wikipedia "Nickel-iron batteries have long been used in European mining operations because of their ability to withstand vibration, high temperatures and other physical stress. They are being examined again for use in wind and solar power systems where battery weight is not important." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%...93iron_battery

Seems like these NiFe batteries might be worth investigating. The way that electricity costs are going up in Australia any combination of Solar/Batteries could be very worthwhile. In our Hamlet, a few years ago, several people got together and negotiated a deal for solar to be installed on about a dozen houses, those people now smile a lot.
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 12:15 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Actually one of the best tech ideas in this area is the Flow Battery - the charge/discharge rate is governed by the reactor cell size, and the capacity by the tanks. The reaction agent passes through the reactor cell and gets stored in another tank.

Upshot is you can scale to the household demand/solar array capacity by putting in a bigger tank and more liquid.

There's quite a bit of development into cheap liquid agents - organic molecules being a current fav - but still no practical examples.

To the op, it makes no financial sense at the moment, but I can see the scope for a retro-fit inside a few years. You also need islanding inverters, and probably to put the red-tape merchants back in their box.
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 1:33 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

I'm following some blokes on Whirlpool and throwing the ideas at my Daughter who is studying electrical engineering, with the idea of getting at least some of my household... Not sure what part yet... ACon... Appliances or maybe just the light circuit running on batteries, just as an experiement before we move to our final retirement dwelling... where I'd like to run as much as possible off grid.

Hopefully the Daughter can do this as some kind of project which goes towards her results I'd be happy to finance it.

They are extolling the virtues of Ni Fe batteries on Whirlpool... very costly though apparently.

Try this and a few other threads on their site.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2034737
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 4:12 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Quality lead-acid batteries that are properly maintained are fine. On some of the ancient substations that I've seen on the UK rail network, 30-40 year old trip circuit battery installations are still going strong. Maybe some are even older

Lion and Lipo batteries are getting better and better all the time and prices will fall, but in the meantime LA still work well
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 4:17 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I hope some time in the future this becomes financially viable.
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 4:19 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Quality lead-acid batteries that are properly maintained are fine. On some of the ancient substations that I've seen on the UK rail network, 30-40 year old trip circuit battery installations are still going strong. Maybe some are even older

Lion and Lipo batteries are getting better and better all the time and prices will fall, but in the meantime LA still work well
Zulu - I watched that Youtube clip you recommended, while the guy is a genius - it is hard to replicate that unless you have some electrical engineering background, which I don't have.
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Old Mar 4th 2014, 11:56 pm
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by JOE2010
Zulu - I watched that Youtube clip you recommended, while the guy is a genius - it is hard to replicate that unless you have some electrical engineering background, which I don't have.

Electricity isn't rocket science - but you need to treat it with respect. 12/24 volt systems are much easier to handle than mains, with the added advantage that you don't need to be an electrician to tinker with them.

I've been toying with the idea of adding a small turbine to my chimney, as we normally get a nice breeze in the evenings. I was planning to connect it to a cell that would run the light at the front of the house that illuminates the door number.


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Old Mar 5th 2014, 1:05 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by Swerv-o
Electricity isn't rocket science - but you need to treat it with respect. 12/24 volt systems are much easier to handle than mains, with the added advantage that you don't need to be an electrician to tinker with them.
That ain't necessarily so. Particularly with solar installs, there are quite a few regs involved in low voltage but high current installation. Remember, if the power stays the same then lower voltage = high current. Plus DC vs AC has it's own issues.

Originally Posted by Swerv-o
I've been toying with the idea of adding a small turbine to my chimney, as we normally get a nice breeze in the evenings. I was planning to connect it to a cell that would run the light at the front of the house that illuminates the door number.
Err, that's a lot of hassle for something that can be handled by a small cheap solar cell and a rechargeable AA battery...
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Old Mar 5th 2014, 3:15 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by GarryP
That ain't necessarily so. Particularly with solar installs, there are quite a few regs involved in low voltage but high current installation. Remember, if the power stays the same then lower voltage = high current. Plus DC vs AC has it's own issues.

I meant using a low voltage lighting network - Not running low voltage into high power appliances and network, something like is done on boats and caravans. A low voltage to mains network interface would require some additional work.


Originally Posted by GarryP
Err, that's a lot of hassle for something that can be handled by a small cheap solar cell and a rechargeable AA battery...

I know, but it's a project - I enjoy them, so it won't be any real hardship. The entry light would be the first part of it - if it worked, it could feasibly be extended to some other low voltage lighting projects about the house. Solar isn't that great an option for me, as I have a HUGE gum tree above the house that blocks light and covers everything with leaves


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Last edited by Swerv-o; Mar 5th 2014 at 3:17 am.
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Old Mar 5th 2014, 3:49 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by Swerv-o
Electricity isn't rocket science - but you need to treat it with respect. 12/24 volt systems are much easier to handle than mains, with the added advantage that you don't need to be an electrician to tinker with them.

I've been toying with the idea of adding a small turbine to my chimney, as we normally get a nice breeze in the evenings. I was planning to connect it to a cell that would run the light at the front of the house that illuminates the door number.


S
Great idea, go for it and let us know how you get on

My ex-boss and friend (admitedly, he is an electrical engineer) has been building a house on a property that he owns in the SW of WA. As it is far from the nearest electricty source, he has decided to go completely off grid So:
Solar power
Solar hot water
Diesel (dual-fuel) generator
Wind turbine
Sat TV
Mobile internet
Rainwater tank
Bore pump
etc

A lot to set up but he will save a fortune in the long run

I love projects too. The latest one I'm planning is an R/C 6-motor multirotor FPV 'drone' with Gopro camera, GPS etc. It's going to be a father/son project and should be a lot of fun
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Old Mar 5th 2014, 4:07 am
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Default Re: Solar Power - Battery Storage

Originally Posted by Amazulu
Great idea, go for it and let us know how you get on

My ex-boss and friend (admitedly, he is an electrical engineer) has been building a house on a property that he owns in the SW of WA. As it is far from the nearest electricty source, he has decided to go completely off grid So:
Solar power
Solar hot water
Diesel (dual-fuel) generator
Wind turbine
Sat TV
Mobile internet
Rainwater tank
Bore pump
etc

A lot to set up but he will save a fortune in the long run

I love projects too. The latest one I'm planning is an R/C 6-motor multirotor FPV 'drone' with Gopro camera, GPS etc. It's going to be a father/son project and should be a lot of fun

I've also got a half finished project to run a rechargeable extractor fan in the shower room, but with a PIR so that it turns on when it detects somebody in the shower, and then over runs by 20 minutes when the shower is vacated. Been developing it on a small PROM, though keeping the battery charged is a problem, because of the stupid gum tree.


S
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