JackTheLad

You REALLY don't want to get in to a discussion about this

Anyone born in Ireland (Republic of Ireland constitution states that the whole Island, including Northern Ireland, is Ireland) can be an Irish citizen. It isn't completely split down religious lines, but its fairly close. Many Northern Irish catholics take up Republic of Ireland citizenship and passport (or dual nationality).

I don't know of any northern ireland protestants who have taken a republic of ireland passport, there are no advantages.

One major reason I didn't want a republic of ireland passport was I would need a visa to visit the US (thas has since changed), whereas with a UK passport I didn't need a visa.

So if you are born in Norn Iron you are and also are not a british citizen, depending on what you choose.

I hope thats as clear as mud

Cheers,
JTL

Prototype

Myself, being the prodigy of an original "10 pound pom" emigration of parents from Northern Ireland, I can legally apply for THREE different passports. Australian / British / Irish.

I am also married to a Dutch lady so in about 5 years I can grab a cloggy passport too !!!

So if anyone is looking for a multi-national James Bond, I'm your man.

I have 2 (A & B) but you are right .....not much advantage to be gained from having the Irish one.!!

jayr

It i sgnerally accepted that Pom is derived from Pomegranate, from Jimmy Grant fro immigrant. There is no evidence fro any association with Prisoners of her majesty:


From Macquarie dictionary:

pommy
noun (Derogatory) 1. an English person. --adjective 2. English. Also, Pommy, Pom, pom. [probably from pomegranate, rhyming slang for `immigrant'. Definitely not from the purported acronym POME, supposedly standing for Prisoner Of Mother England]

Furthermore, anyone who is English is also British. Britain is made up of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and some other bits and pieces. Political Correctness has nothing to do with it. If you are (for example) English you are also British.

JAJ

Leaving aside the semantics, the Republic of Ireland no longer claims Northern Ireland as part of its national territory.

That does not affect its rights to grant its citizenship/passport to those in Northern Ireland, as every sovereign state is free under international law to decide who its citizens are.

There are probably a few who have done so.

The number is dwarfed by the number of Northern Irish Catholics who hold British passports (perhaps alongside Irish ones) for reasons of sentiment or convenience.

It's also most likely dwarfed by the numbers from the Republic of Ireland who hold British passports. Either as British subjects - anyone born in Southern Ireland before 1949 is entitled to British subject status, if they claim it in writing, and a British subject passport. There are also substantial numbers in the Republic of Ireland who hold British citizen passports by virtue of their own birth in the UK, descent from a parent born or naturalised there, or where they themselves have naturalised or registered as a British citizen when resident in the UK.

If a Northern Irish person decides to apply for an Irish passport, it does not affect that person's British citizen status.

The British Nationality Act 1981 is the law on this matter - and it contains no clause revoking the British citizenship of Northern Irish people choosing to travel on Irish passports. There is only *one* way for a dual British/Irish citizen to cease being British, and that is to formally renounce their British citizenship by applying to the Home Office.

Jeremy

mary1

Neither do I.But comments like that are impolite.

Having been called English so many times instead of Scottish when I lived in London I understand the importance of being polite to people with regard to their nationality and religion especially in regards to my job as a nurse.I work in a multicultural enviroment- and that's just the staff-from every corner of the world.


I'm a Scot/Brit/Australian with no religion (though brought up a "protestant") married to an Australian/Northern Irish (3rd generation) ex-Catholic.His family have a strong Irish heritage and are all called traditional irish names.The closest my husband gets to his roots is watching Father Ted.

I've just told him over his coffee and vegemite and toast that his ancestors were not Irish after all and were British because England officially own Northern Ireland. He looked confused and said "I'm an Ozzy" but I'll never be British.

JAJ

With respect I was responding to a comment that suggested that someone from Northern Ireland who is a Roman Catholic should automatically be considered Irish rather than British, despite the fact that the same person might happily carry a British passport.


Agreed. But that does not extend to jumping to conclusions about someone's nationality based on real or supposed religious affiliation.


England does not 'own' Northern Ireland. Suggesting that is like saying that New York State 'owns' Texas, or New South Wales 'owns' Western Australia.

England and Northern Ireland are parts of the *same* country.

As for your husband's ancestors, it's not clear why you think the fact they they were British would have made them English (regardless of which part of Ireland they came from - both parts of Ireland being fully British prior to 1922). Or indeed why it might make your husband anything other than Australian.

Jeremy

mary1

The last bit was supposed to be "tongue in cheek" about colonialism.I think a lot of English are surprised to see their Empire crumble down to only themselves.
Just because the British govern Northern Ireland doesn't make its citizens British if they don't want to be.

Do you actually personally know any Northern Irish Catholics who would call themselves British? I've worked with many in Australia who are proud of their culture and not anti-British but just don't identify themselves with Britain.

I was chatting to someone at work where his accent was from and he replied "Derry".I asked my colleague from Dublin where "Derry" was and she said the Catholics call the town" Derry" whilst the Protestants call it "Londonderry".

Also you will find that many nationalities hang on to their cultures and traditions and still call themselves e.g. Greek or Italian despite never having been there.That's why my husbands family still call their kids Irish names.Doesn't stop them being Ozzy.

Ceri

My mother is N.Irish, born and bred . She's not a catholic, she's a protestant - And she calls herself Irish and never British. I don't think I have ever heard her once saying she is British.. My grandparents were the same -
I don't think it has anything to do with religion the way people think, and what they choose to call themselves.. My mum's mothers side are protestants. I think My grandad used to call himself British from memory, he's the only one in my mums family who called themselves British - but I think that had more to do with the army mentality thinking wise, which he spent most of his life in.


On the subject of the Irish passport, children who are born outside of Ireland to of anyone born on the Island of Ireland can also apply for an Irish passport.

Cheers

JAJ

The British Empire was never solely the product of the English.


Citizenship is a matter of law, not sentiment.

While it is the case that some people in Northern Ireland do not *see* themselves as British that does not affect their legal status under the law.

It would be quite wrong for people in one part of the United Kingdom to be denied British citizenship simply on the basis of their religion. For those who don't see themselves British, the UK government has no objection to them using Irish passports if they prefer and the Irish government is willing to extend the concession (as it clearly is).


The evidence I have is mainly anecdotal. I would think the group that are actively pro-British is small, although not negligible. The group that is actively anti-British is a minority, although a significant one. And then in the middle there's a majority who are not particularly anti-British but at the same time don't identify as British and would see themselves as mainly Irish - but at the same time might be reluctant to vote away their British citizenship if push ever really came to shove.


Jeremy

JAJ

Although the Irish government will be changing that law soon.

From late this year, or early 2005, a child born in Ireland or Northern Ireland (after commencement of the new legislation) will only be an Irish citizen automatically if at the time of its birth at least one parent is:

- an Irish citizen; or
- a British citizen; or
- a permanent resident of Ireland or the UK; or
- legally resident in Ireland or Northern Ireland for at least 3 years in the 4 years preceding the child's birth. Residence on tourist, student or 'seeking asylum' status is not counted.

This change is taking place to counter the increasing numbers of children born in Irish and Northern Irish hospitals to visitors with the main objective of obtaining Irish citizenship for their child.

The law change is in line with what the UK enacted in 1981 and Australia in 1986. New Zealand is likely to make a similar change soon.

Jeremy

Ceri

Are they changing the decent laws ? I.e. - my mum is born in N.Ireland to two Irish parents ( who were born literally in "Ireland".. before the split) .. and so on in Ireland.. I am the first of todays generation to be born outside Ireland, and have one Irish parent.. my mum (my dad is Welsh) . I can claim an Irish passport with out residing in the country. Are they also altering this law for future generations? ( children who are not born in ireland - the decent "laws") Or is it just for non Irish parents who have a child in Ireland?.. Hope that makes sense.

Cheers

seang

Not sure if this part of claiming Irish citizenship is changing but if you have a parent OR grandparent post 1922 who held an Irish passport(who I believe had to be born in Ireland) you are entitled to an Irish passport.many Americans are claiming passports by this route.

JackTheLad

I refer the right honorable gentleman to the Irish Constitution as amended by the Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1998

"Article 3:
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. "

It has changed its claim to an aspiration

Its irrelevant whether a Northern Irish person has renounced their British Citizenship. If they go up to an Oz immigration offical with their Irish passport, they'll be classified as Irish. So if Australia classifies them as Irish, and Ireland accepts them as Irish, and they class themselves as Irish, who cares that the UK thinks they're British?

Cheers,
JTL

JAJ

There are no plans to change the descent laws at this stage.

If such a change was made it would not affect those with an Irish born *parent* as citizenship in such cases is automatic.

It could affect those with an Irish born *grandparent* who have not applied for citizenship. Registration will be granted but must be applied for.

Jeremy

JAJ

The 1922 cut-off is irrelevant.

A parent born in Ireland or Northern Ireland makes you a citizen automatically and all you need to do is apply for a passport if you wish.

A *grandparent* born in Ireland or Northern Ireland means you are entitled to citizenship if you apply for registration. One effect of the law is that those with Irish born grandparents who delay registration until after their own children are born overseas cannot then register their children. Those registered beforehand can do so.

There's a lot of information at:
http://www.irelandemb.org/visa.html

Jeremy