Originally Posted by billywhiz007

I was hoping to ignore any reply to my previous message,

But lets quote Quote Mr Steve Lawson as above

"
Whilst the extent of cover may well terminate at the point of delivery and on the date of delivery as you rightly say), there is still a time allowed for making a claim. That time could be 7 days or 30 days. Provided you can reasonably prove damage was caused whilst insured "


Hooray he admits what I am saying is correct !

The Cover will terminate upon delivery,

Now its all well and good "saying" that cover will be extended to another 7, 30 days, whatever, how can you prove that the damage MAYBE was caused by negligence !

So the scenario goes like this,

Acme Shippers have delivered your effects to your new home at the other side of the World.
You have Paid for "All Risks" Insurance on your effects
The Collection Company Packed & Wrapped Your Effects
You do not want the Effects unpacked at your new home

The Consignment is delivered to your new home in VISIBLE perfect condition.
You will then have to sign,
That The Effects as per the Inventory have been delivered
That is is under your (customer) instructions that the effects are not unpacked

Now the Amount of Items delivered is correrct, no noticable damage.

How can an "Insurer" possibly work out their liability if they then have to extend an open cheque book ?

They Cannot,

The client might be moving his own effects around the new home, dropping a box of china ? . Saying there is something missing from inside a package etc ? Believe it or not more damage is caused whilst Unpacking than at any other time !

Now I have seen some claims in my time, and "some" clients are making out an Insurance claim even before the Move commences, sorry its true !
As an Agent for many "Shippers" I sometimes have to do a report on alleged missing, damaged goods, the vast majority are being colorful with their "claim"

It is for this reason that the "Insurer" will want to protect their liability, for this reason they want

The Effects Unpacked & Unwrapped upon delivery
If left "Unpacked" The clients signature accepting delivery,

NOW THIS IS WHERE YOU MUST READ THROUGH YOUR POLICY 100%
UK Law Yes, But you signed Accepting their Terms & Conditions didnt you ?

If you are not sure, make the Insurer confirms in writing your requirements.

If you really think any Insurer is going to say to you,

Yes we accept full liability for your 20K GBP consignment, After you have signed saying that all the Inventory has been delivered and none of the packaging is damaged,

I dont think so, lets be honest do you ? Would you invest in an "Insurer" that had that policy ?


If you packed it yourself, well your Cover is Total Loss Only, (However if the carton shows signs of external force you may well be able to prove the Mover was negligible ?

Good Luck !

Originally Posted by chrisk8

To Billy Wizzer - first and foremost stop applying logic. Irrespective of what you think to be the case based on your experience - the new laws governing Insurance that came in Jan 2005 - do not allow you or Insurance companies to apply logic. They will only settle claims based on the terms and conditions relative to the Insurance Policy offered and sold in the first place. If they don't they are in breach of the new FSA regulations. Secondly, irrespective on when the liability ceases any company that is authorised to offer Marine Insurance has written into its T&Cs - "Time limits for Claims", which 99% of the time will allow 28 days for a move overseas. If you move people overseas please check with your own brokers / insurers etc and let us all know what they tell you.

To all the Removal Men and Women within this thread - I guess your businesses aren't very busy at the moment - having read this thread with great interest - I see you all have a great deal of time on your hands 'during office hours' to discuss the ins and outs of Insurance. As I see it all you've achieved is to create a whole host of confusion for all the 'real people' who use this website as genuine tool of resource - when planning a move overseas.

To the 'real people' - alot of what you have read, in particular from Billy Wizzer is just not factual - don't just take it from me check with your removers - ask the questions about time limits for claims after your goods have been delivered at destination - they will tell you the facts and you can confirm the facts within the terms and conditions (usually printed on the rear of your quotation and explained further within the Insurance documentation they will send to you)

To Steve Lawson and Queen B - you are as close to the facts as any and I commend you for your honesty, knowledge and attempt to extol the virtues of an industry that is quite obviously under a lot of pressure through no fault of its own in the UK. Boody Americans !!!!! :curse::curse:

Originally Posted by mr mover

Show yer cards son..........mm

Originally Posted by chrisk8

To Billy Wizzer - first and foremost stop applying logic. Irrespective of what you think to be the case based on your experience - the new laws governing Insurance that came in Jan 2005 - do not allow you or Insurance companies to apply logic. They will only settle claims based on the terms and conditions relative to the Insurance Policy offered and sold in the first place. If they don't they are in breach of the new FSA regulations. Secondly, irrespective on when the liability ceases any company that is authorised to offer Marine Insurance has written into its T&Cs - "Time limits for Claims", which 99% of the time will allow 28 days for a move overseas. If you move people overseas please check with your own brokers / insurers etc and let us all know what they tell you.

To all the Removal Men and Women within this thread - I guess your businesses aren't very busy at the moment - having read this thread with great interest - I see you all have a great deal of time on your hands 'during office hours' to discuss the ins and outs of Insurance. As I see it all you've achieved is to create a whole host of confusion for all the 'real people' who use this website as genuine tool of resource - when planning a move overseas.

To the 'real people' - alot of what you have read, in particular from Billy Wizzer is just not factual - don't just take it from me check with your removers - ask the questions about time limits for claims after your goods have been delivered at destination - they will tell you the facts and you can confirm the facts within the terms and conditions (usually printed on the rear of your quotation and explained further within the Insurance documentation they will send to you)

To Steve Lawson and Queen B - you are as close to the facts as any and I commend you for your honesty, knowledge and attempt to extol the virtues of an industry that is quite obviously under a lot of pressure through no fault of its own in the UK. Boody Americans !!!!! :curse::curse:

Originally Posted by billywhiz007

Amazing !!!!!!!! All the Insurance Brokers coming out of the woodwork because a few home truths are said !!!!!!!!!!

Easy, Ask your Insurers to put in writing, That the Effects you have insured, will be insured (Without Condiions) for 28 days AFTER delivery has been made.

Go on ask, not when the effects have been delivered, ( to late) but before you take out that Huge Policy !

Give them nothing !!!!!

Originally Posted by mr mover

This might help a few people it is a general T&c form for Marine insurance and outlines what you get for your money........
http://www.australiatrade.com.au/Ins...ions/Index.htm
..............mm

Originally Posted by billywhiz007

A Hornets nest has been awoken !

Ive just read the above link regarding the Terms & Conditions etc,

Unless Im blind I cannot see where cover is extended 28 days after delivery in WRITING.

To copy and paste a passage,

"The risk under this policy commences from the time the insured goods leave the residence or business location of the Insured at the place named herein and continues during the ordinary course of transit until delivered at the place named herein. Storage prior to shipment overseas or prior to delivery at final destination is covered for any periods stated in the Schedule provided storage is in an enclosed warehouse. "

Yep that makes perfect sense, like Ive always said, whilst the Consignment is within Professional Control (Mover)

It goes on to say under the "Claims procedure"

(a) Take all reasonable steps to prevent any further loss or damage.


This is where the problem lays, Im not going to repeat myself, but the Insurer will make every effort to refuse a claim,

In over 25 years in the Industry, I have never known of one instance wherebye the Insurer has paid out after a clear delivery signature !

So for you Insurance Guys & Gals, come out with a copy of a Schedule / Policy / Terms & Conditions wherebye,

And this is what your customers want,

That the UNPACKED / UNWRAPPED Effects will be Covered (All Risks) for a period of 28 days after delivery.

I look forward to seeing it !

Originally Posted by chrisk8

To Billy Wizzer - first and foremost stop applying logic. Irrespective of what you think to be the case based on your experience - the new laws governing Insurance that came in Jan 2005 - do not allow you or Insurance companies to apply logic. They will only settle claims based on the terms and conditions relative to the Insurance Policy offered and sold in the first place. If they don't they are in breach of the new FSA regulations. Secondly, irrespective on when the liability ceases any company that is authorised to offer Marine Insurance has written into its T&Cs - "Time limits for Claims", which 99% of the time will allow 28 days for a move overseas. If you move people overseas please check with your own brokers / insurers etc and let us all know what they tell you.

To all the Removal Men and Women within this thread - I guess your businesses aren't very busy at the moment - having read this thread with great interest - I see you all have a great deal of time on your hands 'during office hours' to discuss the ins and outs of Insurance. As I see it all you've achieved is to create a whole host of confusion for all the 'real people' who use this website as genuine tool of resource - when planning a move overseas.

To the 'real people' - alot of what you have read, in particular from Billy Wizzer is just not factual - don't just take it from me check with your removers - ask the questions about time limits for claims after your goods have been delivered at destination - they will tell you the facts and you can confirm the facts within the terms and conditions (usually printed on the rear of your quotation and explained further within the Insurance documentation they will send to you)

To Steve Lawson and Queen B - you are as close to the facts as any and I commend you for your honesty, knowledge and attempt to extol the virtues of an industry that is quite obviously under a lot of pressure through no fault of its own in the UK. Boody Americans !!!!! :curse::curse:

Originally Posted by chrisk8

Billy Whizzer - enough of this bullshit - 25 years in the business - no insurance claims after a clear signature?? You are obviously referring to domestic moves within the UK - Take a look at the name of the website at the top of the page - This is a forum whereby the majority of the members are here to report on their lives overseas as expats or research a potential move overseas.

I really can't be arsed to read through all the posts again but as far as I was concerned the subject is not about extending cover past the delivery date but more to do with the time a customer has to submit a claim following delivery, which as you well know is usually as per my post above and to reiterate the point the Royal Sun Alliance allow a timeframe to confirm intent to claim and an extended period to submit a claim. To all our readers this is fact and I can confirm that alot companies offering you an international move will have their Marine Tranist Policies covered under the Royal Sun Alliance banner.

Again fellow members I would remind you to check your removal companies T&C's and look at you Marine Insurance Policies and you will then realise that Bily Whizzer is nothing more than a scaremongerer, who really doesn't understand the ins and outs of the Insurance Polices that are applicable for a move overseas.

Originally Posted by billywhiz007

I was hoping to ignore any reply to my previous message,

But lets quote Quote Mr Steve Lawson as above

"
Whilst the extent of cover may well terminate at the point of delivery and on the date of delivery as you rightly say), there is still a time allowed for making a claim. That time could be 7 days or 30 days. Provided you can reasonably prove damage was caused whilst insured "


Hooray he admits what I am saying is correct !

The Cover will terminate upon delivery,

Now its all well and good "saying" that cover will be extended to another 7, 30 days, whatever, how can you prove that the damage MAYBE was caused by negligence !

So the scenario goes like this,

Acme Shippers have delivered your effects to your new home at the other side of the World.
You have Paid for "All Risks" Insurance on your effects
The Collection Company Packed & Wrapped Your Effects
You do not want the Effects unpacked at your new home

The Consignment is delivered to your new home in VISIBLE perfect condition.
You will then have to sign,
That The Effects as per the Inventory have been delivered
That is is under your (customer) instructions that the effects are not unpacked

Now the Amount of Items delivered is correrct, no noticable damage.

How can an "Insurer" possibly work out their liability if they then have to extend an open cheque book ?

They Cannot,

The client might be moving his own effects around the new home, dropping a box of china ? . Saying there is something missing from inside a package etc ? Believe it or not more damage is caused whilst Unpacking than at any other time !

Now I have seen some claims in my time, and "some" clients are making out an Insurance claim even before the Move commences, sorry its true !
As an Agent for many "Shippers" I sometimes have to do a report on alleged missing, damaged goods, the vast majority are being colorful with their "claim"

It is for this reason that the "Insurer" will want to protect their liability, for this reason they want

The Effects Unpacked & Unwrapped upon delivery
If left "Unpacked" The clients signature accepting delivery,

NOW THIS IS WHERE YOU MUST READ THROUGH YOUR POLICY 100%
UK Law Yes, But you signed Accepting their Terms & Conditions didnt you ?

If you are not sure, make the Insurer confirms in writing your requirements.

If you really think any Insurer is going to say to you,

Yes we accept full liability for your 20K GBP consignment, After you have signed saying that all the Inventory has been delivered and none of the packaging is damaged,

I dont think so, lets be honest do you ? Would you invest in an "Insurer" that had that policy ?


If you packed it yourself, well your Cover is Total Loss Only, (However if the carton shows signs of external force you may well be able to prove the Mover was negligible ?

Good Luck !

Originally Posted by TMRE

Well all this insurance will they won't pay up, is enough to confuse me. Having seen some posts on here, we have decided selling all of our stuff at a loss rather than shipping it is probably the way to go. Seems even the experts (if we can believe they are who they say they are) can't agree which doesn't bode well for us Joe public. Wonder if there is also an element of "where you live" in the quote system as well. I don't mean how close to a base but what your postcode says about you. Would imaging a 4 bed house in a nice area would cost more to pack than the same house in a not so nice area. Did seem to be a bit of that going on in local moves we have had. Anyone interested in the contents of a 4 bed house

Originally Posted by Steve Lawson

Hi Billy, Steve here (career to date 4 years on the vans, 7 years as an estimator (pen-pusher), 10 years working around the world as a forwarder and driver, now 8 years as owner of a miliion pound shipping and transport company - am I qualified?)

You still do do not understand the difference between period of insurance cover and period allowed for making a claim. You have at least 4 people here trying to explain to you the difference. You also confuse negilgable with negligent in an earlier thread??? Similar word, very different meaning - perhaps you are also confusing the insurance policy wording? I just hope he expats-to-be have given up reading this thread.

I repeat to anyone who is still reading this thread, when you are asked to sign any delivery note for receiving any goods always sign the delivery note 'Unchecked'. Then liability extends to the carrier (until the goods are examined/unpacked). I hope that's clear enough.

(Good to see you on Saturday I.B.)...I'm off to earn a living now