Originally Posted by BethandAndrew

OK guys....can someone clarify something for me please?
You say I shouldn't pack anything myself as it's not insured.......but I want to start putting some things like towels, bedding, fluffly toys, christening gown etc in those vacuum storage bags. Would this be a problem as I have packed them up myself?
Cannot cope with the packers wanting to open everything back up!!!!!!! Would end up vacuum packing one of their heads!!!
Beth x x

Originally Posted by Steve Lawson

I can't see a problem - the men will write on the inventory 'Owner Packed' against the item number, and it may not be covered for breakages. But if my men say its packed properly, we would cover breakages, but you will need to verify any losses (i.e. prove what you packed is what you say) in the event of a claim for a lost box that you've packed. Write a list of contents (that's more than the men will do anyways, they will just put bedding/toys) - take a picture if you want - and attach it to the insurance form and the mens packing inventory.

Beth, just do it! -you're the boss (you're not even asking for money off, after all). I'm sure not gonna argue with you, don't fancy being vacuum packed.

Originally Posted by posh10

hi guys,

well pickfords came, really nice man, very thorough. asked bout the buyout, he said they were being bought out hopefully this week. seemed very genuine too. anyway, did the house, came up with for a 20 container £3750. insurance is a diferent story !!!!!!!!!! £50 per cubic ft. worked out to £1450ish. so will see my bets quote and decide far & square.

Diane

Originally Posted by seamus3

Make sure you use a BAR OVERSEAS/FIDI-FAIM Bonded company... Not sure that Pickfords were. Hundreds will get caught out with this.

from today's 'Times'....

February 13, 2008


Crisis at Pickfords puts 1,300 jobs at risk

James Rossiter, Property Correspondent

Pickfords, Britain's oldest and largest removals company, is on the verge of a fire sale to avoid a financial crisis that would put up to 1,300 jobs at risk, The Times has learnt.

The loss-making company is trying to sell some or all of its business as it seeks to secure additional funding to help to pay staff and creditors.

If it failed, Pickfords would become the first high-profile British casualty from the slowdown in the UK housing market and the collapse of the American property sector.

Pickfords, which is registered in Britain as Sirva UK Limited, managed to pay its January wage bill two weeks ago with a £350,000 cash injection from Sirva Inc, its troubled American parent, according to company filings. Pickfords' US parent, part-owned by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, the private equity firm, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last week, adding to the pressure on the UK business to find a cash injection to keep Pickfords afloat while it seeks a buyer.

Pickfords, which dates back to a 17th-century Pickford family packhorse business, is suffering from what its American parent called “significant short-term cash obligations. If a solution is not found to the short-term funding requirement, the directors of Sirva UK Limited must consider filing for an appropriate UK insolvency procedure.”

Talks are under way to sell parts of Pickfords to a London-based company. The buyer would take the UK group's assets in return for “taking on certain liabilities”, Sirva Inc said in documents filed with US regulators. Without extra cash, Pickfords may be forced to try to sell itself “in an insolvency procedure, for example administration”, company filings said.

Brad McCarthy, Pickfords's finance director, said that the company had sufficient cash to pay its staff this month. The payment from its US parent, he said, was “nothing out of the normal ... Quarter one for the moving industry is quieter and we send money to them in busier times - it is the same as has been happening in the past ten years.”

Administration would afford Pickfords similar protection from creditors as that granted to its American parent through Chapter 11 bankruptcy, but Pickfords's management would hand control of the British business to an independent insolvency expert.

“If the sale cannot be completed at all, the company [Sirva Inc] will likely wind up the UK and Irish businesses pursuant to an appropriate UK insolvency procedure,” Sirva Inc said.

However, Mr McCarthy said: “I am very confident at this stage. There is no issue of short-term cash. We have a number of alternatives. I can say with a reasonable level of confidence we are able to find those needs.”

Sirva UK made a post-tax loss of £1.7 million for the year to December 31, 2006, on turnover of £88 million, after accruing post-tax losses of £15 million and £30 million in 2005 and 2004.

Mr McCarthy said that the Pickfords UK removals business and the group's Irish insurance business together made a loss of about £1 million in 2007 and he forecast combined losses of about £1.5 million in 2008.

“We are experiencing a difficult first half of the year due to the housing market, so we are not expecting to improve from 2007. Current trading volumes are above where we expected as we were pessimistic on quarter one,” he said.

Sirva UK has a deficit in its defined benefit pension scheme of about £10 million and has agreed with pension trustees to pay £1.6 million per year into the scheme over ten years, starting in April 2008, company filings indicated.

Sirva UK is owned by Sirva Holdings, whose latest published accounts record £34.8 million of pre-tax losses on turnover of £139.8 million for the 63 weeks ending March 13, 2006. That followed a £32 million pre-tax loss on £157 million of turnover for the year to December 25 2004. Sirva Holdings registered total liabilities of £151 million at March 13, 2006.

Sirva Inc obtained court approval last week for $150 million of emergency funding from JPMorgan, its main bank lender, as part of its move into debtor-in-possession bankruptcy protection for between 60 and 90 days. That loan matures at the end of June.

Moving account

1695 First reference to Pickford family as hauliers
1756 James Pickford, the London-to-Manchester wagoner, has two London headquarters
1817 Pickford family saves business by selling it to Baxendale family
1919 Firm has 1,580 horses, 1,900 horse-drawn vehicles and 46 others
1946 Pickfords merges with Carter Paterson
2002 Becomes part of Sirva Inc, the world’s largest removals firm

Originally Posted by smoothhound1

Steve, Thanks for your comments, I think I shall take them as a compliment. As for spending time in Croydon? For me to get there it would mean a 1 hour car journey and then a 1.5 hour plane trip but I do follow your logic. I think the closest I have been to Croydon is to catch a flight at Heathrow, well at least in the last 30 years.

Originally Posted by Steve Lawson

Hola! Britannia Smoothound!

Originally Posted by Devonfamily

I used Pickfords to move my household from South Africa to Surrey, UK a few years back - and they packed everything (there was ALOT - so I did help the guy with the breakable sentimental Dinner Service which was my late mums). With me helping wrap that stuff did not effect the insurance coverage etc. I had no problems whatsoever and they write up a full inventory check list for every single individual box/item. When they delivered my container load to my new home in Surrey 2months later - every single thing was there! There were only 2 broken dinner plates (of which I had bubble wrapped and packed myself). But otherwise everything was in good order!

They even wanted to unpack all my boxes for me in my home when they delivered the stuff - but I had to politely say No thanks - as I was rather unorganised at the time and didn't know where I wanted everything.

So from my experience - Pickfords were ACE!!!!

Originally Posted by billywhiz007

Hi,

just like to jump in there, as Im in the trade and know all the tricks, I thought it just best to advise readers of your post the true facts,

Now I dont care what others might say, this is the real deal !

By helping the Removal firm pack, they could if they wanted to, refuse to extend liability to the items you packed, it does not matter how nice the packer there is, he / she welcomes your assistance, but the gobbly gook of your insurers say technically effects packed by yourself are not !

Not unpacking upon delivery, now the rest of the Removal Industry all know this well known trick,

So that you are Insured for breakages, the Mover MUST unpack upon delivery, now its well known that a busy firm will unpack so quickly you will just tell them to stop, they work it that way !
Leaving Boxes unpacked is not recommended,
The insurance liability will cease the minute the professional element leaves, thats the Mover !
Now writing "Goods Unchecked" does not work, dont listen to what anyone else tells you, !! and there is some rubbish written in this thread !

Originally Posted by Queen B

This is the real deal!!!! I think not - if you are going to offer advice on behalf of the removal company make sure you offer the correct advice. Your comments are nothing but an educated guess on what is perceived, by many members of the Removal Industry, to be the facts and in essence is not in anyway factual!!!

Please go away and check your company's T&C's relative to International Moving and when you have done that check the T&C's relative to the Insurance Cover or Extended Warranty that your company offers it's clients. You might then be in a position to offer fact rather than perception.

I would also raise a question - Are you suitably qualified under FSA Regulations to offer the advice you have given relative to Insurance Liability. By the sounds of it - I would suggest not!!!! - otherwise you would know that with any type of cover be it Insurance or Extended Warranty - a customer has a period of time to notify an intention to claim and a time period of time to submit a claim, which with most types of cover is 28 days.

I am all for members of the Removal Industry offering assistance and advice to the uninformed masses but for the sake of the Industry make sure the advice you offer is correct - otherwise all you are doing in confusing the issue and making it much more difficult for the removal industry to gain the confidence of its potential customers!!!

Over to you Billywaz,

Originally Posted by Steve Lawson

In my experience, if the mover admits that something was broke down to them, it's insured if the customer also bought a Marine Insurance policy. If they don't admit, then there a hundred loopholes for the insurance firm to wriggle out of a claim, potentially.

As I understand, if liability can be proved or is admitted, it's also covered by legal means (under negligence laws), so long as the mover knows the consequences of damage- i.e. its value. If I see a mover drop a box even packed by me, it's his fault if there's breakages, because its not been handled properly and I expect HIS liability insurance to cover it. If a container is badly packed and there are breakages, the packers are responsible (although proving it in a court may be difficult, granted).

It is a complex situation and it's a shame that the moving firms representatives are not always as qualified as they make out. I believe there are different policies being sold by the different movers. But it seems to be in the interest of BAR members to all spout the same nonsense, with the aim of bamboozling the public.

Queen B is mostly spot on.

Originally Posted by billywhiz007

Queen B is not spot on, at all !!!!!!!!!

Once the professional element has handed over the consignment, the Insurance Company will cease cover !

The Insurers have more get out of jail clauses than Uri Geller !

But to be honest, you cannot expect the Insurers to extend the cover can you, who is to say that the client has not dropped the effects, pinched things, fabricated a claim ?

That is why the Mover has to unpack, No arguing its crystal clear !

Now I dont want to get into a slanging match, FSA Approved, yes I am, but the University of Common sense is where I hold an Honours Degree !

If the Client wants the effects left unpacked, they have to sign an insurance waiver !


If a Carton / vessel etc shows signs of external force [damage] it must be unpacked by the Mover ! It cannot be left unchecked, for any reason.

Whatever any Terms & Conditions may say, and lets be honest the old "BAR" ones got thrown out of court more times than I care to remember, the public does need to know, once the "Mover" has left, thats where it ends.

Again, a simple straight forward answer

Billywhiz

Originally Posted by Steve Lawson

You've done a great job in underselling the very expensive Marine Insurance that moving firms sell!

What you are saying is that if the movers don't unpack then the insured cannot claim? The mover and the insurer would refuse liability for the reasons you have stated?

It's not worth a carrot is it? If I ask you to ship my household in a 20ft container, to pack up, ship and deliver (via your agent), my houseold contents in a 20ft container, you won't take liability. You expect me to buy an insurance premium to cover your liabilities. Now, my home contents are insured for GBP 40,000 - are you telling me that you will charge, GBP 1,200 for a premium? Having charged GBP 1,200.00 you state that I cannot make a claim if your agent doesn't spend a whole day unpacking every box and showing me every item, before asking me to sign your delivery waiver/disclaimer????

There is a simple answer - I will sign the delivery note 'Unchecked'. Then I would have a 'reasonable time', probably around 30 days, to advise the insurer of a claim for any damages. And if the insurer comes back to you, that's tough - you should have packed it to export standard in the first place (ehum - not personnaly you of course billywizz).