Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Jul 29th 2004, 3:39 am
#1
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Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Hi,
I need some help!
My girlfriend and I are both UK citizens living in Australia on a Business sponsorship 457 visa Class C.
We recently had a baby daughter (3 weeks ago) born in Sydney.
We registered her birth in NSW and applied to the UK High Commision, Canberra for a UK passport. They have come back to us to say that she is not automatically entitled to UK citizenship!!!
The reason for this is that my de-facto spouse (of 14 years) was born in South Africa, even though her parents are UK citizens.
Therefore she had UK status passed down by decendency. She has held UK passport holder for approx 20 years. I was born and bred in the UK.
We were advised by UK high comission to talk to Australian authorities about my daughters status. The Australian DIMIA said that because she is a minor she is the responsibility of her parents and she has no australian status. We we advised to talk to UK high commision.
The UK high commision said if my defacto partner and I got married this would not be a problem! What if my partner was a single mum?
I am so frustrated and peed off its untrue. Everybody is passing the buck and not one person from UK or Aus authorities has offered help or advice. My poor daughter is stateless.
What happens if l lose my job or get ill, I would have to leave Aus and my daughter would not be able to return home with us.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
I need some help!
My girlfriend and I are both UK citizens living in Australia on a Business sponsorship 457 visa Class C.
We recently had a baby daughter (3 weeks ago) born in Sydney.
We registered her birth in NSW and applied to the UK High Commision, Canberra for a UK passport. They have come back to us to say that she is not automatically entitled to UK citizenship!!!
The reason for this is that my de-facto spouse (of 14 years) was born in South Africa, even though her parents are UK citizens.
Therefore she had UK status passed down by decendency. She has held UK passport holder for approx 20 years. I was born and bred in the UK.
We were advised by UK high comission to talk to Australian authorities about my daughters status. The Australian DIMIA said that because she is a minor she is the responsibility of her parents and she has no australian status. We we advised to talk to UK high commision.
The UK high commision said if my defacto partner and I got married this would not be a problem! What if my partner was a single mum?
I am so frustrated and peed off its untrue. Everybody is passing the buck and not one person from UK or Aus authorities has offered help or advice. My poor daughter is stateless.
What happens if l lose my job or get ill, I would have to leave Aus and my daughter would not be able to return home with us.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
Jul 29th 2004, 3:55 am
#2
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Posts: 34,649
Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Hi Jamie
Your daughter is stateless at the moment, but that is a problem that can most likely be fixed.
Firstly the British High Commission are right in so far as what they have told you.
- as you're not legally married, you don't automatically pass on your British citizenship to your daughter
- as your partner is British by descent, she does not pass on her British citizenship automatically either (despite the fact she's lived for 20 years in the UK).
HOWEVER - and it seems the High Commission have *not* told you this - your daughter *can* be registered as a British citizen by descent.
There are actually two options:
a. The British authorities *will* normally register as British the child of an unmarried British father if application is made by age 18. This is under s3(1) of the British Nationality Act:
http://bhc.britaus.net/passports/pas...ult.asp?id=376
b. Even if that wasn't the case it appears your daughter has an *entitlement* to British citizenship (from her mother) under s3(2) of the British Nationality Act provided application is made before she's 12 months old.
http://bhc.britaus.net/passports/pas...ult.asp?id=344
Read the 'Important Warning' on this page, although it doesn't look like you've much option in this regard unless you can get her a South African passport and UK immigration visa.
Your daughter's British citizenship application will need to go to the Home Office in Liverpool to be processed, although you must apply via the British diplomatic authorities in Australia.
The fact she's stateless is a reason for the HO to process the application as an urgent case, and if you need help in dealing with the Home Office, get in touch with the MP for the constituency you last lived in in the UK who will be able to assist.
SOUTH AFRICAN CITIZENSHIP
If your wife is a South African citizen, she may be able to register your daughter as a South African citizen by descent.
AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP
As you've been advised, she's not an Australian citizen. She would have been one automatically if you had PR.
If she was unable to get British or South African citizenship, then she could be registered as an Australian citizen. However I do think she's eligible for British citizenship at least.
Feel free to PM me if you need more details on British citizenship for your daughter.
Jeremy
Your daughter is stateless at the moment, but that is a problem that can most likely be fixed.
Firstly the British High Commission are right in so far as what they have told you.
- as you're not legally married, you don't automatically pass on your British citizenship to your daughter
- as your partner is British by descent, she does not pass on her British citizenship automatically either (despite the fact she's lived for 20 years in the UK).
HOWEVER - and it seems the High Commission have *not* told you this - your daughter *can* be registered as a British citizen by descent.
There are actually two options:
a. The British authorities *will* normally register as British the child of an unmarried British father if application is made by age 18. This is under s3(1) of the British Nationality Act:
http://bhc.britaus.net/passports/pas...ult.asp?id=376
b. Even if that wasn't the case it appears your daughter has an *entitlement* to British citizenship (from her mother) under s3(2) of the British Nationality Act provided application is made before she's 12 months old.
http://bhc.britaus.net/passports/pas...ult.asp?id=344
Read the 'Important Warning' on this page, although it doesn't look like you've much option in this regard unless you can get her a South African passport and UK immigration visa.
Your daughter's British citizenship application will need to go to the Home Office in Liverpool to be processed, although you must apply via the British diplomatic authorities in Australia.
The fact she's stateless is a reason for the HO to process the application as an urgent case, and if you need help in dealing with the Home Office, get in touch with the MP for the constituency you last lived in in the UK who will be able to assist.
SOUTH AFRICAN CITIZENSHIP
If your wife is a South African citizen, she may be able to register your daughter as a South African citizen by descent.
AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP
As you've been advised, she's not an Australian citizen. She would have been one automatically if you had PR.
If she was unable to get British or South African citizenship, then she could be registered as an Australian citizen. However I do think she's eligible for British citizenship at least.
Feel free to PM me if you need more details on British citizenship for your daughter.
Jeremy
Originally posted by jrwclark
Hi,
I need some help!
My girlfriend and I are both UK citizens living in Australia on a Business sponsorship 457 visa Class C.
We recently had a baby daughter (3 weeks ago) born in Sydney.
We registered her birth in NSW and applied to the UK High Commision, Canberra for a UK passport. They have come back to us to say that she is not automatically entitled to UK citizenship!!!
The reason for this is that my de-facto spouse (of 14 years) was born in South Africa, even though her parents are UK citizens.
Therefore she had UK status passed down by decendency. She has held UK passport holder for approx 20 years. I was born and bred in the UK.
We were advised by UK high comission to talk to Australian authorities about my daughters status. The Australian DIMIA said that because she is a minor she is the responsibility of her parents and she has no australian status. We we advised to talk to UK high commision.
The UK high commision said if my defacto partner and I got married this would not be a problem! What if my partner was a single mum?
I am so frustrated and peed off its untrue. Everybody is passing the buck and not one person from UK or Aus authorities has offered help or advice. My poor daughter is stateless.
What happens if l lose my job or get ill, I would have to leave Aus and my daughter would not be able to return home with us.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
Hi,
I need some help!
My girlfriend and I are both UK citizens living in Australia on a Business sponsorship 457 visa Class C.
We recently had a baby daughter (3 weeks ago) born in Sydney.
We registered her birth in NSW and applied to the UK High Commision, Canberra for a UK passport. They have come back to us to say that she is not automatically entitled to UK citizenship!!!
The reason for this is that my de-facto spouse (of 14 years) was born in South Africa, even though her parents are UK citizens.
Therefore she had UK status passed down by decendency. She has held UK passport holder for approx 20 years. I was born and bred in the UK.
We were advised by UK high comission to talk to Australian authorities about my daughters status. The Australian DIMIA said that because she is a minor she is the responsibility of her parents and she has no australian status. We we advised to talk to UK high commision.
The UK high commision said if my defacto partner and I got married this would not be a problem! What if my partner was a single mum?
I am so frustrated and peed off its untrue. Everybody is passing the buck and not one person from UK or Aus authorities has offered help or advice. My poor daughter is stateless.
What happens if l lose my job or get ill, I would have to leave Aus and my daughter would not be able to return home with us.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
Jul 29th 2004, 3:56 am
#3
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Joined: Feb 2003
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 3,506
I know of someone who this happened to. Get married.
Jul 29th 2004, 4:01 am
#4
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Maybe you should pass on the details of what I've just posted to them as well.
If the parents do get married, then the father *normally* passes on his nationality at that point, but there are exceptions to this.
The British nationality law will change soon, once the Home Office work out the evidencing processes required where fathers are not married to the mothers. Until then, they will register as British children of unmarried British fathers if an application is made to them before child is 18 and the child would have been British if the parents were married - they have discretion under the law to do this and normally exercise it.
Sometimes it's necessary to know what questions to ask in order to get a *comprehensive* answer.
Jeremy
If the parents do get married, then the father *normally* passes on his nationality at that point, but there are exceptions to this.
The British nationality law will change soon, once the Home Office work out the evidencing processes required where fathers are not married to the mothers. Until then, they will register as British children of unmarried British fathers if an application is made to them before child is 18 and the child would have been British if the parents were married - they have discretion under the law to do this and normally exercise it.
Sometimes it's necessary to know what questions to ask in order to get a *comprehensive* answer.
Jeremy
Originally posted by jayr
I know of someone who this happened to. Get married.
I know of someone who this happened to. Get married.
Jul 29th 2004, 4:27 am
#5
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Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10
So would it be possible travel to the UK in the meantime, for a holiday? If so, what kind of travel document is required.
I've heard it can take up to a year to get her UK citizenship. We want to go back to show our parents their new grandchild ASAP.
I've heard it can take up to a year to get her UK citizenship. We want to go back to show our parents their new grandchild ASAP.
Jul 29th 2004, 6:49 am
#6
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Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Originally posted by JAJ
Read the 'Important Warning' on this page, although it doesn't look like you've much option in this regard unless you can get her a South African passport and UK immigration visa.
SOUTH AFRICAN CITIZENSHIP
If your wife is a South African citizen, she may be able to register your daughter as a South African citizen by descent.
Jeremy
Read the 'Important Warning' on this page, although it doesn't look like you've much option in this regard unless you can get her a South African passport and UK immigration visa.
SOUTH AFRICAN CITIZENSHIP
If your wife is a South African citizen, she may be able to register your daughter as a South African citizen by descent.
Jeremy
Assuming your wife hasnt applyed to retain her SA citizenship (she'd know if she had), she is a Uk citizen. Taking a UK passport without applying to keep her SA citizenship renounces her SA citizenship.
therefore, if youve both got uk passports, there should be no problem with applying to register the baby as UK.
Last edited by DarrenD; Jul 29th 2004 at 6:57 am.
Jul 29th 2004, 6:54 am
#7
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Posts: 7,613
Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Originally posted by jrwclark
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Jamie
Jul 29th 2004, 7:38 am
#8
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Posts: n/a
Sorry I don't know the answer to your question but........
When we applied for citizenship for our adopted daughter it only took 3 months (less in fact).
Good Luck - hope you can work it all out soon
Rudi
When we applied for citizenship for our adopted daughter it only took 3 months (less in fact).
Good Luck - hope you can work it all out soon
Rudi
Jul 29th 2004, 10:28 am
#9
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Processing times for registrations are less that the figures quoted.
But seriously - the process could be completed in *days* if the Home Office give it sufficient priority. Politely request it, and if the answer is no, then get your UK MP on the case.
Remember Zola Budd in 1984? She was registered as a British citizen under the same discretionary provision in a few days.
A few cases on the same thread that might be of assistance:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/3810917.stm
There was another case recently where a US athlete was registered as a British citizen in a few *days* (he was born prior to 1983 with a British mother, and so was entitled under new laws) so as to be eligible to compete for Britain in the Olympics.
The bureaucracy can work at top speed if pressure is put on them in the right place.
She needs to be a UK or South African citizen before you can take her anywhere.
Jeremy
But seriously - the process could be completed in *days* if the Home Office give it sufficient priority. Politely request it, and if the answer is no, then get your UK MP on the case.
Remember Zola Budd in 1984? She was registered as a British citizen under the same discretionary provision in a few days.
A few cases on the same thread that might be of assistance:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/3810917.stm
There was another case recently where a US athlete was registered as a British citizen in a few *days* (he was born prior to 1983 with a British mother, and so was entitled under new laws) so as to be eligible to compete for Britain in the Olympics.
The bureaucracy can work at top speed if pressure is put on them in the right place.
She needs to be a UK or South African citizen before you can take her anywhere.
Jeremy
Originally posted by jrwclark
So would it be possible travel to the UK in the meantime, for a holiday? If so, what kind of travel document is required.
I've heard it can take up to a year to get her UK citizenship. We want to go back to show our parents their new grandchild ASAP.
So would it be possible travel to the UK in the meantime, for a holiday? If so, what kind of travel document is required.
I've heard it can take up to a year to get her UK citizenship. We want to go back to show our parents their new grandchild ASAP.
Jul 29th 2004, 10:39 am
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Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
We faced a similar question of british citizenship not being passed to my daughter even though she was born in London, as my little girl's mum is a NZ citizen.
But, we couldn't get her NZ either as my parter was only kiwi by descent, having actually been born in OZ.
Australian's said she could gain Australian citizenship by descent, but as mum has never held an Australian passport (you didn't need such things travelling between Oz and NZ back in the 70s) she was told that she needed to apply to OZ citizenship herslf first and out daughter could subsequently apply by descent, but only if a resident in Oz at the time (which was not in our plans).
As a result little Mysty was as your daughter, a 'stateless' being.
We looked around for options, and if Jewish could have gained automatic Israeli citcizenship (we aren't), and if in possession of $50k could have bought Naura citizenship (we weren't) so instead we nipped off to Camden registry office one friday lunchtime and got married.
Wah hay!
(We were planning to do this next year, but still was a wonderful thing to do)
Our little one automatically now has British citizenship and is about to gain Australian and Irish by descent, with NZ to follow in 2 years time through her own residency.
Best thing we ever did as globally, a marriage certificate seems to ease the concerns of immigration authorities all over the world.
good luck though
rob
But, we couldn't get her NZ either as my parter was only kiwi by descent, having actually been born in OZ.
Australian's said she could gain Australian citizenship by descent, but as mum has never held an Australian passport (you didn't need such things travelling between Oz and NZ back in the 70s) she was told that she needed to apply to OZ citizenship herslf first and out daughter could subsequently apply by descent, but only if a resident in Oz at the time (which was not in our plans).
As a result little Mysty was as your daughter, a 'stateless' being.
We looked around for options, and if Jewish could have gained automatic Israeli citcizenship (we aren't), and if in possession of $50k could have bought Naura citizenship (we weren't) so instead we nipped off to Camden registry office one friday lunchtime and got married.
Wah hay!
(We were planning to do this next year, but still was a wonderful thing to do)
Our little one automatically now has British citizenship and is about to gain Australian and Irish by descent, with NZ to follow in 2 years time through her own residency.
Best thing we ever did as globally, a marriage certificate seems to ease the concerns of immigration authorities all over the world.
good luck though
rob
Jul 29th 2004, 10:42 am
#11
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Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
but, i would try SA govt first.
i don't know their rules, but most governemnts pass citizenship maternally now so your daughter should gain automatic SA by descent through mum
rob
i don't know their rules, but most governemnts pass citizenship maternally now so your daughter should gain automatic SA by descent through mum
rob
Jul 29th 2004, 10:47 am
#12
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Posts: 34,649
Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Originally posted by robot7
Australian's said she could gain Australian citizenship by descent, but as mum has never held an Australian passport (you didn't need such things travelling between Oz and NZ back in the 70s) she was told that she needed to apply to OZ citizenship herslf first and out daughter could subsequently apply by descent, but only if a resident in Oz at the time (which was not in our plans).
Australian's said she could gain Australian citizenship by descent, but as mum has never held an Australian passport (you didn't need such things travelling between Oz and NZ back in the 70s) she was told that she needed to apply to OZ citizenship herslf first and out daughter could subsequently apply by descent, but only if a resident in Oz at the time (which was not in our plans).
Your partner has been Australian from the moment she was born. Anyone born in Australia prior to 20 Aug 1986 (children of diplomats excepted) acquired Australian citizenship at birth.
http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/90citizenship.htm
There is no need for an application and the fact she's not held an Australian passport is irrelevant.
AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP BY DESCENT
If you were told there is a residential requirement for citizenship by descent, that's also wrong where the parent is born or naturalised in Australia.
If the parent is Australian *by descent*, then the parent is expected to have lived in Australia for 2 years.
And there is *never* a requirement for the child to live in Australia.
See the requirements on form 118:
http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/118.pdf
NEW ZEALAND CITIZENSHIP
Your partner, as a NZ citizen by descent, can 'upgrade' to full New Zealand citizenship by naturalising in NZ. Then any future children born outside NZ will be NZ citizens.
But - NZ is planning to increase the residence requirement to 5 years, and remove the concession for spouses.
BRITISH CITIZENSHIP
If your partner had UK indefinite leave to remain when your child was born, the child was British from the date of birth. Children born to PRs in the UK are British citizens.
If the mother subsequently acquired British permanent residence, this would have given an opportunity to register the child as British.
Jeremy
Jul 29th 2004, 11:35 am
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Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
South African citizenship does not pass automatically by descent, as far as I know - it needs to be registered first.
British citizenship is a lot more valuable (although some South Africans will have a different view) and South African citizenship should not be seen as an alternative - especially for a child with British parents!
Jeremy
British citizenship is a lot more valuable (although some South Africans will have a different view) and South African citizenship should not be seen as an alternative - especially for a child with British parents!
Jeremy
Originally posted by robot7
but, i would try SA govt first.
i don't know their rules, but most governemnts pass citizenship maternally now so your daughter should gain automatic SA by descent through mum
rob
but, i would try SA govt first.
i don't know their rules, but most governemnts pass citizenship maternally now so your daughter should gain automatic SA by descent through mum
rob
Jul 29th 2004, 11:53 am
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Posts: 10
Thanks for all of the advice.
I will apply for the UK citizenship as the father. I have asked the UK high commission to send me the forms.
It looks as if the Grandparents will have to take their holidays in Australia this year, if they want to see their new granddaughter.
My spouse and I may get married sometime but that is our decision. It may be the right thing to do, but this is the new millenium where not everyone follows tradition. I am surprised that the UK authorities do not honour a long term de-facto relationship like ours. I believe that australian authorities do.
I will apply for the UK citizenship as the father. I have asked the UK high commission to send me the forms.
It looks as if the Grandparents will have to take their holidays in Australia this year, if they want to see their new granddaughter.
My spouse and I may get married sometime but that is our decision. It may be the right thing to do, but this is the new millenium where not everyone follows tradition. I am surprised that the UK authorities do not honour a long term de-facto relationship like ours. I believe that australian authorities do.
Jul 31st 2004, 5:53 am
#15
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Posts: 190
Re: Need Help - Stateless Daughter
Wouldn't it be fabulous to marry someone you've been with for 14 years? Marriage would just be a formality, wouldn't it? Considering you're already living as a married couple and now have a stateless child. Go for it, at least it'll be good for your kid, if nothing else...
