Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

I came across this comment in another thread.

and it brought to mind my own experience. I too have an HND in Mechanical Engineering from a student apprenticeship with English Electric (anyone remember them?) and had worked as an engineer in the UK for 13 years before emigrating, but when I arrived out here I discovered that not having a degree precluded me from applying for any engineer's job - I was only able to get work as what was termed a Technical Officer in the Civil Service. I was eventually able to get membership of the Institution of Engineers Australia based on a combination of my HND plus testimonials from people I had worked with in the UK regarding my experience. I am now a Chartered Engineer with full recognition.

So you need to bear in mind that in order to work as an engineer in Australia you have to have qualifications that are recognised by IEAust (also known as Engineers Australia): it is not necessary to actually join the institution as long as you have a degree. If you are in Queensland then you need to be registered as a Registered Professional Engineer (Queensland) or RPEQ - if you are not registered then you can only work under the direct supervision of someone who is. Theoretically, that is - there are plenty of engineers based in Queensland who aren't registered, but it is becoming more common for clients to insist on RPEQ sign-off on documents. This is largely due to legal liability concerns and professional indemnity insurance.

So if you have been working in the UK as an engineer but you don't have a recognised university degree, check very carefully what your status will be over here. I didn't (in 1983) but I got lucky - things are tighter now. For example my CPEng status came automatically - nowadays you have to put forward a CV and a presentation to crusty old sods like me to get Chartered status and in QLD you need Chartered status to become RPEQ.

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

Your not an Engineer in Australia without an Engineering degree. Even many drafties these days now have engineering degrees.

To be honest many locals as here as well won't even classify you as a nengiener unlesss you work on the big resource projects.

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

You can't call yourself legally an Engineer in Britain without a degree either. You're not legally allowed to sign off on documentation etc as you're not qualified without a degree. Same here really, a lot of people with HND's etc call themselves engineers or designers but cannot legally sign off on work

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

You can if you are a Chartered Engineer.

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Not necessarily true - I am a case in point. But the fuss I had to go through to be recognised as an engineer is not something I would wish on anyone.

When I got my HND in 1969 there were probably as many engineers in the UK with diplomas as there were with degrees. Probably all changed now since all the Colleges have become Polytechnics and the Polytechnics have become Universities.

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Although I agree with what your saying there is no way now people can do a HND or Diploma or be trade qualified and call yourself an engineer. You will look silly in this country if you do.

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If you are in Queensland then you need to be registered as a Registered Professional Engineer (Queensland) or RPEQ - if you are not registered then you can only work under the direct supervision of someone who is. .[/QUOTE]

I have just searched on the net and see that this is actually true. I am a Chemical Engineer who has worked for a Steel company and now an oil and gas company in Brisbane and i have never heard this ( i have been here for 2 yrs from the UK). I also dont think any of the engineers i have worked with are RPEQ registered as most have come up from Victoria. I wonder if something happened whether anyone (regulators) would actually ask for your RPEQ registration, i doubt very much.:unsure:

What a money making, red tape waste of time i woule like to know how many registered engineers there actually are in QLD

Funny thing with both companies i have worked for is that the only check they did that i had a degree was my CV.

I also agree with Weebie an engineer needs a degree (although that doesnt make them better than a diploma person) However it seems that Australia does distinguish between the 2 by calling degree graduates -Professional Engineers and diploma graduates- associate engineers

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When TheOriginalMrDreamy went to register the children's births, he wasn't able to describe his occupation as Electrical Engineer (despite being in charge of the supply in North Wales) because he'd done his training inhouse.

It pissed him off so much he started a degree course with OU.

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It's all about liabilities - technically an engineer is liable in most instances for their work, and if someone were to die as a result of poor design by said person he can become legally responsible for this, hence why you need to be properly qualified to sign designs etc. There was a case in Germany of a structural engineer being sued as a result of a roof collapse in an ice rink killing someone - if you're not fully qualified the personal indemnity insurance companies and individuals carry isn't valid.

To quote Dilbert - 'An engineers' main priority is to retire without causing a major catastrophe'

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

A newbie here, also looking at submitting my Quals for assessment, 25 years in the aviation industry with a HND in Eng, God where do i start, looking for this list Sydney / Washington Accord of quals so i dont have to go through Engineers Australia assessment to prove equivalence.

any advice greatly recieved people :thumbsup:

Also looks like i will need IELTS for the points, age is not on my side so the max 20 would be required, as a british passport holder and resident all my life, how hard is the test/s ???? need the 8 or 9 score.

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

Not actually true. If you don't have RPEQ you can't sign off on final drawings that's it, you can do everything else.

Curious to know how the OP got Chartered without a degree as I've been advised that even with the career assessment and proffessional review it's impossible, even for someone who has 16 years experience and who does do everything other than sign a bloody drawing. I'm working towards doing it through ICE rather than Engineers Australia because of this.

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Just as well my employer disagrees :D

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Comes to the same thing. If the work that you do has to be signed off by an RPEQ then he has to approve what you have done: if he doesn't he will tell you what corrections to make before he will sign it. If that isn't 'supervision' I don't know what is. I have several unregistered engineers working with me: I tell them what needs doing, then check their work when they have finished it. I let them work out how to do the job, but nothing leaves the office until I am happy with it.

I got my MIEAust in 1984 - things have changed since then.

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Here's the Engineers Australia page on the Washington/Sydney Accords:

Washington/Sydney Accord

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

[QUOTE=KJCherokee;9507915]Comes to the same thing. If the work that you do has to be signed off by an RPEQ then he has to approve what you have done: if he doesn't he will tell you what corrections to make before he will sign it. If that isn't 'supervision' I don't know what is. I have several unregistered engineers working with me: I tell them what needs doing, then check their work when they have finished it. I let them work out how to do the job, but nothing leaves the office until I am happy with it.

Still a load of garbage, I was able to sign off designs that allowed trains to run at 200km/hr in UK and here need someone with less experience but an RPEQ to sign off a 130km/hr design.

Its a jobs for the boys thing only.

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[QUOTE=bingobob777;9508003]No it's a legal requirement. If you are not qualified to sign off a design you cannot do so, to do so and then you and your company will be personally liable in the event of an accident as your PI will be invalid.

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[QUOTE=jimbo_d;9508138]I realise all that and didn't say anything to the contrary, doesn't mean the law is correct :thumbup:

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

If don't have an Engineering degree you are NOT an Engineer. You can't sign off on drawings and therefore are not an engineer. The ridiculous Job titles that the UK have don't transfer over here.

People who don't have an engineering degree and who think they are an engineer are in complete loser denial. Calling yourself something that you are not is one of the most British things out there and is laughed at extensively in Australia. If I worked as a nurse and didn't have a nursing degree well then I'm not a nurse.

TBH unless you are on big O&G or mining projects (especielly in Perth) you are not really an engineer if you work on civil projects...more a designer.

It's funny seeing tradies on here call themselves engineers.

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

Total and utter bollocks as usual

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A bit of paper doesn't make you an engineer. Anyone who thinks that is a complete loser. My industry is full of people at senior level who don't have a degree and aren't chartered, they are infinitely more capable and competent than the legion of plebs who think they're something because they are good at studying.

The best engineers are the ones with a background in design and construction, a masters degree in civil engineering doesn't give you the insight in how something is actually built.

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Exactly. There are loads of guys who are chartered and don't have degrees - when you've been doing it for 20+ years and your institute gives you chartered status, then that's all that matters. Even then, there are loads of guys who are not chartered, nor have a degree, who are hugely competent.

Engineers Australia is a mickey mouse outfit anyway - I'll take the opinion of my institute, the IEE (now IET) over them anytime

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Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I only applied for RPEQ 2 years ago because not having it was limiting what I could do, as more and more clients are making it a requirement. I've been designing high pressure gas pipelines for the last 30 years without being registered.

It's more to do with insurance than anything else. Since engineers are likely to be sued if something goes wrong, we all need professional indemnity insurance of some sort and no insurance company is going to pay out if we are not working in strict compliance with the legislation - which means RPEQ in Queensland.

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Having an engineering degree may be a starting point for being an engineer, but I have yet to come across a graduate straight out of Uni who I would consider an engineer - given two-three years of experience and the good ones start to become useful, in that you can tell them what needs doing and rely on them to produce useful work without needing constant guiding. Some never manage to realise the difference between Uni engineering where getting the correct theoretical answer is important, and real-life engineering where getting the best possible result within a limited budget is of critical importance.

I'll take an engineer with lots of experience over a graduate with a degree any time. Many of my colleagues who are nationally respected in their profession don't have degrees - just like me. I have 40+ years experience instead.

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+1. Never had much faith in them, and found they were obsessed with Australian Degrees. Show them anything from overseas and they get all cagy.

I didn't bother joining.

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

Me neither.

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Mind you, I keep away from any organisation that forms itself, then offers some high sounding membership on completion of their own expensive course of crap.

The Australian institute of Management is a classic. No matter what your qualification, you cant be a member until you do their Mickey Mouse course.

Harvard MBA - no chance. AIM crap diploma, and you are in.

The Project Management groups are about the worst. The form some crap group, set exams, then for a fee offer "cheat sheets" to help you pass.

I tell the lot to get stuffed. Never stood in the way of me making a dollar.

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I think this is a sign of the education establishment becoming too powerful.

I was at a seminar, sponsored by my company, yesterday at UWA Perth.

The dean of the University gave us a bit of spiel about how their degrees were better than the ones given out 10 or 20 years ago because now you need 3 years to do a Bachelors then 2 for a Masters. Total of 5 years before you're a qualified Engineer.

He also said one of the reasons is that gen Y now start Uni with very poor English and Maths so need remedial teaching for the first few months.

So now if you go to Uni as a bright student who is good at English and Maths your dragged down by the numbskulls that follow you and end up doing an extra 12 months to get something that used to take 4 years instead of 5.

So that's another 12 months of education that has to be paid for.


The days of coming up through the ranks are becoming harder and harder.

Keel

Re: Engineering Qualifications in Australia
 

Apologies if this is a little off topic :)

As an IENG and MIET registered in the UK do I need to transfer to Oz or can I simply continue to pay my annual registration fee and then check out the local network wherever I move in Oz?

I reckon I can just carry, on but knowledge of someones first hand experience would be good;)

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I'm MIET (although I prefer MIEE - I was pissed off when they changed) and have just continued to pay my annual fee by credit card every January. There are local branches of the IET in all the capital cities here - they are constantly inviting me to events that I never bother with!

Don't bother with Engineers Australia - they are a waste of space.

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Cheers :thumbup: Had already decided to give EA the finger ;)

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Hmmmm. An NVQ level 3 in what's it called, oh yeah ENGINEERING. A HNC in errrr ENGINEERING. 15 years working in errrr ENGINEERING companies. What does that make me then? I must be in denial.

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Yes because HNC and Level 3 NVQ's are the eqivilant of a tech school and thus does not make you an engineer. Those qualifications aren't worth much in a country where it is extremely easy to get into University.

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Yes you are - there is a big difference between the content of a HNC course and a Degree - the mathematics and theory for one. An HND is a different kettle of fish, the content is much closer to a Degree, especially 20/30 years ago.

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<snip> making yourself feel better loser job titles don't transend to Australia. If you don't have the degree don't be calling yourself an engineer because all the engineers in Australia do have that degree.

Its common for Australian engineers in the UK to say that their degree is the eqivilant of a Uk Masters because of the extra year.

HNC and NVQ Level qualifciations in many professions in Australia are jusdt lolz!!!!! lol

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Think what you like just cause you went and got a degree while others trained up with real experience. My qualifications got me a positive skills assessment for mechanical engineer from EA and did not stop me getting a job in Sydney. Oh and I quote from the wonders of the Internet:-

The Institute of Engineering and Technology of Great Britain show that an HNC earned prior to September 1999, e.g. HND or HNC is equivalent to a three year accredited bachelor degree. This falls in line with rules with the Sydney Accord regarding immigration rules into Australia.[6]

And as for the content. I did years 2 and 3 of a part time degree at Leeds Met and I can tell you the content was not significantly different, just a lot more assignments. I can't comment on year 4 as I had to pull out for financial reasons.

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Engineering Degrees in the UK and Australia go under the Washington Accord. Closer look at the Sydney accord its basically a tech school qualification.

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Can't be bothered with arguing. Fact is in the UK we have chartered engineers and incorperated engineers. CEng and IEng. Fair enough Australia 95% of the time downgrades IEng to technologist. This was to please the chartered club. Any professional who attempts to degrade their colleagues does not deserve the respect they should have gained attaining their qualifications. You do not see this degrading anywhere near as much in other professions.

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The point is, being good at mathematics and theory does not make you a good engineer, hence a degree doesn't.

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There's two ways of looking at it

1. Australian educated engineers really are better than the rest of the world and engineers Australia are correct in requiring a degree to be chartered or

2. The standard of Australian engineers is actually no better than anywhere else, however Engineers Australia are trying to keep some form of exclusivity to keep themselves in a job.

A comparison between Australian infrastructure and that of Western Europe would tend to say number 2, as would the fact that Australian companies are willing to pay twice the average salary for people without a degree.

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My own theory would be that once upon a time charter status was very hard to come by. Now you can get on a degree course in Australia with relative ease and there are now way too many chartered engineers than jobs. This means they are having to take 'lesser' more hands on jobs previously done by incorperated engineers such as draughting, design and production. The only way they can get into these jobs They have no experience with is by degrading us incorperated engineers to technologists.

Bachelor degrees have also been Degraded down the list as well. These now only get you IEng status In the UK (Technologist in oz) and you need a masters for CEng.