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Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Old May 8th 2008, 10:43 pm
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Default Does Australia really need skilled workers?

when I was writing moderator closed that thread so I paste it here:

if australia really needed skilled workers then local employers would employ everybody on the spot without stupid questions about experience, certificates, etc.; see the british economy needs skilled workers and opens borders for migrants from EU, and they don't need to face problems like we in OZ. They are asked for EU passport only (eligibility to work in the UK), and this is all, in the USA lot of illigals can find a job easy, and green cards holders find jobs without any problems. In Oz being eligible to legal work doesn't mean you can work, first you need local certificates, licences and experience, many times i saw some machines and tools made in Europe, Japan, China and immigrants having experience with it in their homecountries, the same machines, can't work here due to lack of australian work experience, but this is still the same machine, and australian employer say "it is hard to find right people". Overseas qualifications are worthless in Oz, first assessing bodies issue positive skills assesment meeting australian requirements, later we are asked to provide local certificates, without it we can't work. I met a welder with many years of experience and City and Guilds diploma who had problems to recognise his diploma in Oz and work as a welder, TRA recognised it, but to work he needs to have a local licence, like many tradepersons, he earns 24$/h and in the UK he used to earn 14£ welding with the same tools. Australia calls skilled people to come and live here, charge them for immigration procedures, later we come, we can't find jobs, or low paid, this sounds like ripping off. How can we enjoy australian lifestyle if we face problems like this? and Aussies are surprised someone is not happy with Oz and call him "whinging pom"
australia doesn't need need skilled people only their money, visa fee costs about 2000$, skills assesment several hundreds, after arrival if you didn't spend a fortune shipping your belongings you must buy here some things you need, so you spend your money again, and if you can't find a job is better to requalify so you are charged tuition fees to get local diplomas, you leave the schools and you are lucky if you find a trainee position. You can input keywords "trainee" or "no experience" on seek.com. au or careerone.com.au and see how many jobs you found and if you could do it, apply there and wait forever to be interviewed, and be aware that not only you applied.
kendeanita's OH has 18 years of experience, so is really experienced and his qualifications are useless in country saying desperately needs skilled people.
Amazulu desperately seeks person with the right skills, how long does it take? what is the problem? - lack of these type people, nobody wants to train them, everybody wants to employ very experienced people only, where can people gain australian experience first? australian employers require too much and are surprised can't find anyone
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Old May 25th 2008, 1:17 pm
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Default Re: Jobs / Wages thread - Part Two

Originally Posted by Conrad242 View Post
when I was writing moderator closed that thread so I paste it here:

if australia really needed skilled workers then local employers would employ everybody on the spot without stupid questions about experience, certificates, etc.; see the british economy needs skilled workers and opens borders for migrants from EU, and they don't need to face problems like we in OZ. They are asked for EU passport only (eligibility to work in the UK), and this is all, in the USA lot of illigals can find a job easy, and green cards holders find jobs without any problems. In Oz being eligible to legal work doesn't mean you can work, first you need local certificates, licences and experience, many times i saw some machines and tools made in Europe, Japan, China and immigrants having experience with it in their homecountries, the same machines, can't work here due to lack of australian work experience, but this is still the same machine, and australian employer say "it is hard to find right people". Overseas qualifications are worthless in Oz, first assessing bodies issue positive skills assesment meeting australian requirements, later we are asked to provide local certificates, without it we can't work. I met a welder with many years of experience and City and Guilds diploma who had problems to recognise his diploma in Oz and work as a welder, TRA recognised it, but to work he needs to have a local licence, like many tradepersons, he earns 24$/h and in the UK he used to earn 14£ welding with the same tools. Australia calls skilled people to come and live here, charge them for immigration procedures, later we come, we can't find jobs, or low paid, this sounds like ripping off. How can we enjoy australian lifestyle if we face problems like this? and Aussies are surprised someone is not happy with Oz and call him "whinging pom"
australia doesn't need need skilled people only their money, visa fee costs about 2000$, skills assesment several hundreds, after arrival if you didn't spend a fortune shipping your belongings you must buy here some things you need, so you spend your money again, and if you can't find a job is better to requalify so you are charged tuition fees to get local diplomas, you leave the schools and you are lucky if you find a trainee position. You can input keywords "trainee" or "no experience" on seek.com. au or careerone.com.au and see how many jobs you found and if you could do it, apply there and wait forever to be interviewed, and be aware that not only you applied.
kendeanita's OH has 18 years of experience, so is really experienced and his qualifications are useless in country saying desperately needs skilled people.
Amazulu desperately seeks person with the right skills, how long does it take? what is the problem? - lack of these type people, nobody wants to train them, everybody wants to employ very experienced people only, where can people gain australian experience first? australian employers require too much and are surprised can't find anyone


Great article. A time saver!

But Conrad, your comments have really touched a chord with me.

I get the same impressions. Some of us, who are going to OZ from UK, have really excellent experience, skills (technical and soft) as well as proven track in the industry. In UK, my qualifications and experiences are not questione at all. At interviews in UK, I don't get techincal questions or such, but an informal chat, which more than not, gives a good indication one's ability and experience. Now, I am going to OZ, thorough, sponsorship with OZ company, and have actually dragged them back into 21st century with some new designs, and instead of getting recognised with this, I am having to put up with base salary of $85k, relocation money of $4k and nothing else. My OH wants to to to Sydney so badly that I don't think about rocking the boat. Though I think I am being short changed with the salary package. We have an OZ technical manager who keeps relying on myself for key decisions here in UK (that's the branch for which I am working for until I move to Sydney) and yet he is earning twice what I earn. The difference? He is an OZ and this is an OZ company. His qualifications are recognised in OZ wherease mine not so. Even though I am a Microsoft Certified Professional. Sorry, if I am coming accross as a moaner. Just wanted to back Conrad's arguments.

If it weren't for OH, I know where this OZ company can stick that job offer.

People in UK have also their self worth. It's time OZ stopped MILKING every opportunity for quick buck, in the name of skill shortages.

Without people with quality skills, Oz will stay as good as it's barren middle section: tumbleweeds and desert.

So, why don't you make 457 easier OZ?
Why ask for $4,500 per child up front for education in NSW?
Isn't paying the individual school's fees enough?

:curse:
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Old May 25th 2008, 2:47 pm
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Question Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Conrad242 View Post
when I was writing moderator closed that thread so I paste it here:

if australia really needed skilled workers then local employers would employ everybody on the spot without stupid questions about experience, certificates, etc.; see the british economy needs skilled workers and opens borders for migrants from EU, and they don't need to face problems like we in OZ. They are asked for EU passport only (eligibility to work in the UK), and this is all
I wasn't aware that the UK allowed skilled worker to ply their trade without qualifications, registration or certification. How very interesting.

I guess all those CORGI plumbers are feeling a bit stupid right now, eh?
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Old May 25th 2008, 2:50 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Conrad242 View Post
australian employers require too much and are surprised can't find anyone
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Old May 25th 2008, 3:20 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede View Post
I wasn't aware that the UK allowed skilled worker to ply their trade without qualifications, registration or certification. How very interesting.

I guess all those CORGI plumbers are feeling a bit stupid right now, eh?

The Stampede: Well, you missed the point of what Conrad was saying. He didn't mean that Brits shouldn't need the qualifications for jobs in OZ but for them to be asked to prove every bit of certification/qualification one has, even if the person has proven track record in the field of working in UK in that trade for many years, for the OZ then turn around and force the person to quantify the skills and experience in minute details, is propesterous and belittling. When skilled people come to UK, they need to prove that they have relevant qualifications and experience. They just need to show they have what it takes to be in that job, whether this experience is gained here or abroad.

Those CORGI plumbers do feel stupid when applying for an OZ visa as they do have recognised qualifications, with most of them plenty of years of solid experience, and yet in OZ, it means so little.

I guess only the surf dudes can get easily to OZ and don't have to justify their skills!

Maybe I am wrong....Now, let's see, which way to hold the board?

(Time to grow long and unkept hair, wear a bead ?)

Maybe
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Old May 25th 2008, 3:40 pm
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Smile Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Syedney View Post
The Stampede: Well, you missed the point of what Conrad was saying. He didn't mean that Brits shouldn't need the qualifications for jobs in OZ but for them to be asked to prove every bit of certification/qualification one has, even if the person has proven track record in the field of working in UK in that trade for many years, for the OZ then turn around and force the person to quantify the skills and experience in minute details, is propesterous and belittling. When skilled people come to UK, they need to prove that they have relevant qualifications and experience. They just need to show they have what it takes to be in that job, whether this experience is gained here or abroad.
I found exactly the same when I came to the UK. Nobody wanted to see my CV, and employment agencies insisted that I would have to start all over again. I was forced to take a job paying £5 an hour because nobody was interested in anything I had done back home in Australia. It took me several years to work my way back up to a decent salary.

Those CORGI plumbers do feel stupid when applying for an OZ visa as they do have recognised qualifications, with most of them plenty of years of solid experience, and yet in OZ, it means so little.
Scottish JIB cards are recognised in Australia, so perhaps it's time for the English plumbing industry to find out how they're doing it, and go about things the same way.
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Old May 25th 2008, 5:09 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Interesting post, and although I do agree that there are many hurdles to overcome and red tape to navigate, that is the current process in place to get where you want to be.

So it's a case of get on with it or forget it!,but it's always nice to now you can come on here and vent a little when it's not going to plan.

So as a plumber who is on that road I am happy to do it because that is what I want.
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Old May 25th 2008, 5:59 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

I appreciate that it must be frustrating, but look at it another way - would you (as an interviewer) recognise another countries qualifications over and above the ones that you know inside out?

As an example, I know the strengths and weaknesses of the various accountancy qualifications that can be obtained within the UK. As a result, depending on what I am looking for in a role, when going through the selection for interview the qualifications tell me quite a bit and assist with the selection process.

I don't expect an Australian employer to necessarily understand the nuances of the various UK qualifications, as they will be far more familiar with the Australian qualifications and I don't see this as wrong, or narrow minded, just realistic.

Its human nature to lean towards what you know, and it is unsurprising that Australian employers don't necessarily understand the ins and outs of UK qualifications. Personally I think the best approach is to determine how to transfer to recognised Australian qualifications in the quickest/easiest time and accept that this is part and parcel of moving to another country - to be honest I doubt that it is a situation unique to Aus.
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Old May 25th 2008, 6:53 pm
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Default Re: Jobs / Wages thread - Part Two

Originally Posted by Syedney View Post
His qualifications are recognised in OZ wherease mine not so. Even though I am a Microsoft Certified Professional. Sorry, if I am coming accross as a moaner. Just wanted to back Conrad's arguments.
If MCP is the best certification that you can mention in your moan, then I am surprised you are actually getting as much as 85k :-)
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Old May 25th 2008, 7:18 pm
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Arrow Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Certification and qualification mean everything these days. Sure, you can claim to have decades of experience, but that's still only a claim until you actually prove it.

Yes, Australia needs skilled workers. No, Australia doesn't need skilled workers without any recognised qualifications.

I doubt I would receive much sympathy if I asked the British government to abolish the CORGI system just so I could pick up a spanner and call myself a gas plumber.
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Old May 25th 2008, 7:36 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by NikiL View Post
........ and it is unsurprising that Australian employers don't necessarily understand the ins and outs of UK qualifications. Personally I think the best approach is to determine how to transfer to recognised Australian qualifications in the quickest/easiest time and accept that this is part and parcel of moving to another country - to be honest I doubt that it is a situation unique to Aus.
Firstly, Australia accepts only recognised certified skills for someone to obtain a skilled visa. What the OP is stating is that once you get here, those skills and experience are not worth a jot. This is particularly difficult the more skilled you are.

Secondly, I'm not sure if you're a female but if you are, then forget about a career. Your experience, qualifications and ability will make you stand out like a sore thumb which will only serve to irritate, especially if your boss is a male.

Australia is a superb place to live but don't under estimate the crap work ethics. Go back to 1980's UK to understand how it will be out here. Management skills are extremely poor which is why Aus requires skilled workers, because they can't increase GDP themselves. Rather than addressing the cause they bring in skilled workers who all fight for the same jobs who then don't find decent work or decent pay. Basically skilled people doing unskilled work for a pittance. Sounds like a really good economic strategy, especially since skilled migrants tend to bring in money too
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Old May 25th 2008, 9:11 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Conrad242 View Post
when I was writing moderator closed that thread so I paste it here:

if australia really needed skilled workers then local employers would employ everybody on the spot without stupid questions about experience, certificates, etc.; see the british economy needs skilled workers and opens borders for migrants from EU, and they don't need to face problems like we in OZ. They are asked for EU passport only (eligibility to work in the UK), and this is all, in the USA lot of illigals can find a job easy, and green cards holders find jobs without any problems. In Oz being eligible to legal work doesn't mean you can work, first you need local certificates, licences and experience, many times i saw some machines and tools made in Europe, Japan, China and immigrants having experience with it in their homecountries, the same machines, can't work here due to lack of australian work experience, but this is still the same machine, and australian employer say "it is hard to find right people". Overseas qualifications are worthless in Oz, first assessing bodies issue positive skills assesment meeting australian requirements, later we are asked to provide local certificates, without it we can't work. I met a welder with many years of experience and City and Guilds diploma who had problems to recognise his diploma in Oz and work as a welder, TRA recognised it, but to work he needs to have a local licence, like many tradepersons, he earns 24$/h and in the UK he used to earn 14£ welding with the same tools. Australia calls skilled people to come and live here, charge them for immigration procedures, later we come, we can't find jobs, or low paid, this sounds like ripping off. How can we enjoy australian lifestyle if we face problems like this? and Aussies are surprised someone is not happy with Oz and call him "whinging pom"
australia doesn't need need skilled people only their money, visa fee costs about 2000$, skills assesment several hundreds, after arrival if you didn't spend a fortune shipping your belongings you must buy here some things you need, so you spend your money again, and if you can't find a job is better to requalify so you are charged tuition fees to get local diplomas, you leave the schools and you are lucky if you find a trainee position. You can input keywords "trainee" or "no experience" on seek.com. au or careerone.com.au and see how many jobs you found and if you could do it, apply there and wait forever to be interviewed, and be aware that not only you applied.
kendeanita's OH has 18 years of experience, so is really experienced and his qualifications are useless in country saying desperately needs skilled people.
Amazulu desperately seeks person with the right skills, how long does it take? what is the problem? - lack of these type people, nobody wants to train them, everybody wants to employ very experienced people only, where can people gain australian experience first? australian employers require too much and are surprised can't find anyone

A far bigger problem for migrants is not the skills side, obviously you need skills, and the same rules,regs and skills and licences that australians require. Thats what gets people there is far more red tape here, for australians as well.

Plus dont forget austrlias low unemplyoyment - the reason we supposidly need all these workers brought in well your employed if you work 2 hours a week, many 'employed' australians only work a few casual hours a week. That distorts the real amount of jobs going more than anything else.

The australian newspaper recently reported the Rudd government is planning to uptake the migrant intake to 300,000 a year! plus 457 visas, thats a massive amount compared to the workforce size in oz. In other words, so much competition for jobs wages drop.

I can comment on skilled tradespeople, one of the most wanted if you believe the gov speel. Well 2 years ago, we would find 3/4 blokes turn up for jobs if you advertised, chippies, foremen, brickies etc etc, now you will easily get 40+ responses to any job. Theres been a massive influx of migrants, and the economy has slowed, potential migrants should be more worried about that, be skilled and experienced as possible theres not that much work right now in many fields.

Last edited by jad n rich; May 25th 2008 at 9:15 pm.
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Old May 25th 2008, 9:15 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

Originally Posted by Vash the Stampede View Post
Certification and qualification mean everything these days. Sure, you can claim to have decades of experience, but that's still only a claim until you actually prove it.

Yes, Australia needs skilled workers. No, Australia doesn't need skilled workers without any recognised qualifications.

I doubt I would receive much sympathy if I asked the British government to abolish the CORGI system just so I could pick up a spanner and call myself a gas plumber.
vash most of the time you talk sense, albeit biast towards aus for that i can well understand your an aussie and your standing up for your self and your county ( that must be applauded and i am sincere when i say that )


however you stance that

"Certification and qualification mean everything these days. Sure, you can claim to have decades of experience, but that's still only a claim until you actually prove it."

this statement doesnt seem to hold water over here as even after youve prooved it they still wont employ you without further costly and time consuming training

for example and this is quite long so go and get a cup of tea and a biscuit
( i`m using a sparkie as thats what i am )
i`m mid 40`s full apprentisship 20 odd years in the trade, jib registered and in the uk i ran a NIC qualified company,

in order to emmigrate you need to gain a tra
http://www.workplace.gov.au/workplac...oAustralia.htm
trade recognision australia - for this you need to send off all your certifactes proove your training proove that youve worked in the trade and for whom, it can months tracking down course details employer references etc and finally when its all sent and you get that postive result from the tra and your on to the visa application you think wow that was a real close scutainy of what ive done and yes i thought that was a positive as i wouldnt want any one walking into my country that wasnt fully qualified iether,

so you get your visa and you move down under

all electricans in aus need licenceing ( again i think this is a good idea as it stops bullshitters / pretenders from working )

off to the local electrical safety office

i`m from the uk heres my tra, cpr cert can i have a licence please

no you need an artc
australian recognised trade certificate
http://www.workplace.gov.au/workplac...nresidents.htm
wtf ?? the tra document is only for migration yes it prooves your a tradie but only for migration purposes you need an artc to gain a licence

and your cpr cert isnt valid as it was gained in the uk we will only recognise an australian one, wtf do austrailian hearts beat differently ??
( they didnt like that - no senes of humour )


where does one get an artc, mmm from the tra
yes the same form (identical in fact with a different number at the top )
so you dig all your tra stuff out again send it all off to the tra`s artc dept and they issue an artc in about a month

back to the electrical safety office
with your artc and an aussie cpr cert

yes youve prooved that your qualified heres a permit to train
wtf again ??
you need to do an australian wiring and testing course in the mean time we will let you work under the supervsion of an australian qualified electrican untill youve completed the course at tafe

now your problems really start

can you get a job as a sparkie with a permit to train
can you foook
sorry we cannot afford to have some one hold your hand untill your qualified
we can take you on as a ta ( trades assistant / sparkies mate )
the problem with this it that as a ta you aren`t doing the relevant work that goes towards your tafe corse ( tafe = college/tech )
the local tafes only run one corse a year starting in feb and ending in aug so if you arrive in say june your foooked and have to wait untill the next year

and whats so laughable about all this is that the aussie wiring and testing rules AS 3000 which they are so so keen on getting you to study is more or less a direct copy of the BS7671 aka the uk wiring rules

since doing all of the above to gain an electrical licence ive gone back
and done another course to gain a contractors licence i`ll not bore you with whats needed as it was just as daft as the first

another example of australian licencing

an austrlian sparkie mid 50`s only ever worked in aus, done sparking all his life let his contactors licence lasp as he was working for the local electricity supplier and didnt need it, he decides that he would like to get back into contracting approaches the electrical safey office and he`s refused
he is made to go back to tafe and do the whole of the contractors course again ( feb to aug ) just to get back a licence that he`d previosley had for over twenty years




what a load of b*llocks no wonder qualified people such as plumbers sparkies ect are mowing lawns and working in bunnings the red tape etc associated with working in a trade has gone completely mad

come on where is the sense in all this ???
cause i can`t see any


rant over move along theres nothing to see




regards steve



so does austalia need skilled workers ??
yes they do
but they make so hard to work that many give up and do something else

Last edited by steve`o; May 25th 2008 at 9:17 pm. Reason: added my answer to the original question
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Old May 25th 2008, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

[QUOTE=steve`o;6393087]



another example of australian licencing

an austrlian sparkie mid 50`s only ever worked in aus, done sparking all his life let his contactors licence lasp as he was working for the local electricity supplier and didnt need it, he decides that he would like to get back into contracting approaches the electrical safey office and he`s refused
he is made to go back to tafe and do the whole of the contractors course again ( feb to aug ) just to get back a licence that he`d previosley had for over twenty years

what a load of b*llocks no wonder qualified people such as plumbers sparkies ect are mowing lawns and working in bunnings the red tape etc associated with working in a trade has gone completely mad

come on where is the sense in all this ???
cause i can`t see any



Youve made a great point there. Its the same red tape and over zealous certification for the australians too. Its not just crazy regs for immigrants. Sons a spark in an austalian apprenticship now, hardly an easy ride then all the licencing matters once he qualifies.

Litigation is the main reason, jobs come with licences you get held far more responsible legally and financially for your work in oz. Plus the litigation mentality of australian society, didnt someone on this fourm claim the other day more so than the USA
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Old May 25th 2008, 9:33 pm
  #15  
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Default Re: Does Australia really need skilled workers?

the other thing i cannot understand is once you have your licence thats it
theres no one / body / gov dept that checks that the works to a standard
the only time the local electrical safety office get invloved is iether when theres an accident ( too late ) or a complaint made by a customer

in the uk all electrical companies are iether in the nic or eca ( governing bodies ) and the works regularly checked and if its substandard you can loose your accreditaion which means your out of work
over here they disbanded the electrical inspectors on the insistance of the unions some twenty years back and well sorry to say it but at times it seems that anything goes
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