chris955

He doesnt differentiate

BadgeIsBack

I bet it would be great for your cause for me to say Yes?

No. I have a lot of time for tradesmen - they have a lot of skill and have to get their equipment and themselves from place to place in traffic (yet this forum would probably whinge about them being late etc).

I see myself as below a tradesmen in that I have done a lot of practical work -working with horses, a bit of farmwork, a bit of parachuting, sailing, and other things I won't go into - and now I am a volunteer firefighter - but don't have any of the skill a tradie would have.

Some of my IT roles reflect the fact I have had more than one profession and training (my degree reflects another well known profession) and as a result I have got myself a consulting job which might take *me* offshore to Asia Pac and the world.....(laugh at that one!)

IvanM

Unlike yourself I have no cause or axe to grind because some sysadmin once called your code buggy crap. A quality engineer is worth far more than some pumped up half arsed code jockey who thinks they are superman with a degree.

BadgeIsBack

Who has the axe to grind? You jumped in here talking about devs and outsourcing. (I suspect you have - but I won't dwell on it).

I was only making the point (to someone else) that you can't talk about IT in one country in those negative ways, perhaps only complain about the occasional duff role.

I don't even talk to sysadmins. (Someone was talking about there being too many rules - ironically, aren't these the people who apparently make some of the rules and think they are God if not supermen - in the words of a marketing guy..) IT people (lots) make things happen, sysadmins keep the underlying structure going.

I am not a code junky (these specifically get hired from Asia) nor am I a sysadmin. I was suggesting that my skills and experience mean that I am not obliged to feel superior to tradesmen (your point), my job being outsourced (your point) or what training I had (people's points about TAFE) - nor indeed should I even concern myself with what people in their domain should think (unless they are being ignorant - see my major point).

IvanM

These are your words

You seem to look down on TAFE "types". Tradies happen to be TAFE. Is that the classless society you have talked about before?

As to your PM, I have done sysadmin amongst other things.

BadgeIsBack

The talk started because someone knocked someone with a certificate from TAFE.

The implication being that some TAFE qualifications are crap. I continued the discussion to point out that:

a) most of the people I know with TAFE-style quals in IT are the support types. (Objective observation).
b) that the only company I know where people were a bit below industry were very TAFE like..(subjective observation) - I probably should have said 'not professional'. Note - I do not hide behind any degree - never have done. I supplant it with practical experience.

I respect tradies. I thought we had covered that. They go to TAFE but an apprenticeship and skill are surely far better than a Cert 3 in 'IT'...a tradie has to rely on skill..in IT I have a nice delete button...

..we come full circle back to the original poster who complained about Australian IT - and then TAFE...

I did not talk about a classless society and never have. There are blue collar workers and white collar workers and most people will talk about it in these terms. All I said in another thread was that there was more consistency - I have often said that Australian society is a bit more homogenised in action than the UK and I will stick with that observation, if I may - if I may. I've also said there are many similarities - the problem as I see it - if I may - is that a lot of expats fail to experience these.

Paul2412

Wow, there's a lot of attitude on this thread... Although I've not had the most experience in Oz I've 10 years experience in my profession and can say that the professionalism is the same here as the UK. Not sure why the constant bitching over what country is better and who's better because they have a degree. Its like reading a thread written by children!

BadgeIsBack

Which is what I, and Bcworld said before it went pear-shaped...(it being the same). Someone came along and talked about framing the insult they had.

Perhaps the level of professionalism is important - slagging off IT in Australia (being bitchy) does not sound very professional and has nothing to do with qualifications.

rinkerdink

Wow, your salary boasting is normally a bit more covert but today you came right out and said it. For the record, as much as it may make you feel better to stealth boast about how well you are doing it comes across as vulgar and I doubt if any body thinks any better of you for it. Just a thought

BadgeIsBack

This sounds petty to be honest - as an example - and does not really illustrate a 'disaster in IT in Australia'. This could happen anywhere. I figure the aim is to have enough documentation and to ensure that it is updated - but not to have too much. That's why companies have wikis etc.

rinkerdink

As somebody who has worked in management and had a hand in writing procedures (albeit not in an IT setting) I always found it interesting the response you got from complainers below when suggesting a career in management might be for them if they have such an insight into where it's all going wrong, after all it's the easiest thing in the world to find fault with somebody else's work. I saw some pretty rapid neck retractions. This whole debate is essentially pointless and about people who profess to know best but are seemingly incapable of reaching the dizzy heights where they can influence and bring their ideas to fruition (it's normally for the most obvious reason that this is the case)

Beoz

It was I who first mentioned the TAFE thing and to be quite frank, I couldn't care less whether you had zero quals, TAFE, degree, Masters or PHD. It's your experience that matters to me. Most of the time I'd rather hire someone without any formal qualifications and a bag of experience.

But Aussie metality follows the yanks. "lets hire the bloke with the most tickets up his/her arm". That's a receipe for disaster.

I was making fun of the bogan, saundering into the office, with his TAFE cert under his arm swinging his big d .......... you get the picture.