paulspell

Janduk

Because most of them are here illegally and have no right to ask us for a handout. Just where would you draw the line?

The UK spends billions each year in foreign aid, pumping extremely large amounts of money into third world countries to help them develop their economies. Africa has received vast amounts from the UK over the years but is more interested in buying guns with the money than food for the starving masses.

At home the UK spends billions more supporting the 100,000's of asylum seekers already here as well as those that are living in poverty in this country - not everyone is as well off as you seem to think.

Nobody can accuse this country of turning it's back on the needy, but there has to be a limit.

I understand everything you say and to an extent I agree with you, but why, oh why, can people like you not understand that you simply cannot fit a pint of water into a half pint glass? Our infrastructure and economy cannot support a never ending influx of people, why can you not understand that?

Where would you house these people given that we already have a major housing shortage; where do you treat them when they are ill as we already have waiting lists in excess of 100,000 people at any given time; where do you educate their children given that the education system does not have enough money to teach the children already in the system? The list goes on and on.

So before ranting on about your bleeding heart nonsense, and suggesting that we should simply give away every penny we have to anyone with a hand out because we should in some way feel guilty about not being poor, take a step back and consider the wider reaching implications.

jandjuk

"And I mean this from the point of view of Housing, Hospitals, Education, Welfare State........even jobs!"

Well maybe, but I'm from New Zealand, living and working in the UK. Up until recently (before the Working Holiday Visa regulations were to changed to allow working in a professional job) thousands of NZers, Aussies, and South Africans worked in the UK in violation of their visas - AND can claim free health care, and strain the UK's housing and transport etc (granted, we cannot benefits but I'm sure some do).

My point is that no-one EVER complains about these foriegn nations living in the UK, or for that matter the thousands of EU workers also using your houses, hospitals, and jobs....

"you cannot escape the fact that this country is not in a position to sustain these people, without it having some effect."

True, that is a fact. But it is also a fact that the countries these peaple come from are in a EVEN WORSE position to sustain these people! (And I won't mention the role the UK has had in that over the years) So what is the solution....?? I'm not sure I know, but intolerance is not the answer...

(that's all I have say - this isn't really the place for this discussion - but it does seem there are some extreme hypocrits here)

paulspell

Perhaps it is a lot easier to adopt your point of view when you haven't lived here all your life and can bugger off home to Nz whenever you feel like it.

What contribution has Nz made to accepting and supporting the refugees of the world?

And you have the cheek to accuse other people of being hypocrites!

gsb

Jandjuk

Yes you are right, people do tend to forget about the other migrants taking jobs. The focus is on east european and middle east migrants, but I would guess that is because there are more over them and the burden on the state is much greater.

You mention the role the UK has, yep we do have a psat that in some areas is not something to be at all proud of. But do we open our doors to all nationals who's country we have had some involvement in? I think that your arguement(?) opens the floodgates and broadens the issue.

I would say we are talking not about the rights and wrongs of british foreign policy over the decades, or the state of the countries that these people have come from, but simply that the UK cannot support the influx much longer (as if it can support it now!).

I am not sure where hypocrasy comes into the comments made there at all, but well, if that is what you think so be it.

jandjuk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3080129.stm

This seems to a more intelligent discussion than the one any of us are having!

jandjuk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3083739.stm

And there we go - we can all watch the telly tonight on this very subject...

cresta57

Australia may indeed decide to put it's own people first.[of which we won't become entitled for at least 2 years]
Should they stop the influx of immigrants then the need for housing would diminish thus putting construction workers like us out of work. Think on, who would get a job offer first the "home grown Aussie" or the "bloody pommie immigrant over here taking food from the mouths of the good people of Australia". Hell we may even be sent back home, couldn't happen eh? Look at the recent posts regarding NZ immigration changes!
It doesn't matter what spin you put on it "illegal� or "bogus" asylum seekers, at the end of the day they are coming because it's a far easier life and better quality of life for themselves and their families. Isn't that's the same reason why most on the forum are emigrating?
While the "system" allows it people will always take full advantage you can't blame them for doing it. Blame the apathetic electorate [just how many of you actually voted BNP last time:scared:?], blame the welfare state, blame the EU, and blame the Labour government. Hell you can even blame the last Tory government like New Labour. BUT don’t blame the man who just wants a better life for his family.
I don't think there is an ideal solution I, D cards for all citizens would lead to racial tension within minority groups, stopping benefits for 2 years would cause bigger problems for people who needed help the most and lead to even more crime.
Perhaps old Enoch was right all those years ago
I do know that to slate [no pun intended] immigrants coming here and then become an immigrant yourself has got to be hypocritical however you choose to dress it up.

paulspell

Hypocritical? If you really honestly cannot see the difference between someone who enters a country legally and contributes to the economy of that country through paying taxes etc, and someone who enters a country illegally looking to scrounge off the welfare state, then you probably should not be let out of the house alone!

To compare people who emmigrate to other countries legally, wherever they come from or are going to (including the UK), to illegal immigrants is not onlt offensive but it is precisely this inability to distinguish between the two that causes much of the argument.

You are right though in that it is the Government who is to blame for lettiing the situation happen in the first place. But that does not let the bogus asylum seekers entirely off the hook.

Slater

When I get to Australia I will respect the Austalian people, I will fit in with and enjoy their way of life, I will not see myself as superior in either a personnal or religous way, I will not sponge off their welfare system, whether I work or retire, my children will be brought up as Ozzies. The only disrespect to Australia would be if I continue to support England when we play them at Rugby, football and cricket, (difficult one to call), but I fully expect my children to support Australia in all sports, even against England.
I do not blame these Asylum seekers bogus or otherwise for trying to seek out a better life, but I do blame our Government for allowing it to happen to such an extent that it could, and probably will ruin our country.
The British are a strong and determined people, history has taught us that, they will sort it out when the brown stuff hits the fan.

Slater

Ruthyman

I like to think about it like this:
If you are nice enough to invite people to stay in your house, then you set house rules - you take each case individually and you get an idea of peoples genuineness by their actions and you set the rules according to this. And you have to live with them everyday so they need to be realistic rules for both of you.
There's no point blanketing immigration-it just wont work, you need to have (general) procedures but those procedures need to have check points where you can follow up on people because you do need to take each case individually and see if they are genuine.
It seems to me that most govt procedures re: immigration fail to do this:
case point is the program on young assylum speakers (under18) some of whom are left to rot in horrible flats and of whom no-one gives a f***

another case point: from my own experience-is watching a female from a different religion grow up in oz and yet have to acceed against her wishes to a marriage in Turkey (to a stranger she had never met)
In a western country that is akin to rape, buit other religions have different ideas.
Im not trying to annoy people, just find out where the responsibility stops.
On a plane the mother must put on a mask before she looks after her children
In the same way a country should protect its own before helping others-otherwise how are we going to help others.
And often the people that pay the most are the second generation-the kids who have to grow up in one country but with TWO different lifestyles/cu;tures.
My mate had to choose between her two younger sisters and a forced marraige for all of them or her own ideals. She chose to stay with her sisters. I think Australia needs more people like her but I also think wonderful people like her shouldnt be put in this position.
Its not just the parents fault. Its australias fault for not taking a stronger stance. Look at france-you need to speak the language to get anywhere. They will accept you with open arms if you make the effort.
Research shows that people who emigrate are stuck in a time warp. They remember their cultures up to when they moved and are unable to progress any further. Just look at your own experiences.
Culture is a wonderful thing but a country cant be everything to everyone or it will lose what identity it might have. If you try to throw everything in the pot you end up with something inedible
BTW i think an aboriginal language should be a compulsory subjusct during primary school.
pps-I am of mixed blood & my sister is aboriginal

jayr

And you are moving to Australia contributing to the use of its resources, boosting the need for increased expenditure in infrastructure, using the limited water supplies. Increasing the need for land in a country which is mostly desert. You dont seriously think that people are going to greet these individuals with open arms, do you?

jayr

The same goes for Australia, only in this case you will the immigrant.

Kiwipaul

This is because these countries have reciprocal arrangements with each other and their is just as many Brits doing the same thing in their countries (well mabe not SA) as their are in the UK.

It gives young people a chance to explore the world cheaply.

Your lucky in NZ because it's VERY difficult for asylum seekers too get their, because you are effectively protected by the efficiency of the Australian border controls and the hard attitude of the gov, which effectively stops asylum seekers dead in their tracks.

gsb

For some of the comments that are flying around, I can only comment that:

We can all hear, but not all of us can LISTEN!

Comparisons to the issues we are raising are poles apart. How can you compare an illegal immigrant, to someone who makes an application to a country under a skilled migration category, under the SKILLS IN DEMAND LIST (as publised by either the government or the state government). You are not going to tell me they are the same issues are you...........I guess you are?

Ruthyman

i am an aussie born and bred of auusie parents born & bred of aussie parents etc...I have never had a govt handout from Uk except the normal childcare. Ive had moments when I wanst sure I could do it but i did it-washed dishes etc.
however some people have genuine hardships and are desperate for help - remeber the guy who was found in someones backyard-he had tried to enter uK by stowing away in the wheel bay of an aeroplane. He froze to death