Rocsta

Hi Luby..

I can imagine reading the negative comments and thinking otherwise.However,i just had a friend who was here and she relocated to Joburg last summer coz of the Gautrain project.It was a tough decision but she took it aboard.We r in contact and she's loving every bit of being there....

So,i still say crime is a concern but that doesn't mean that ur life is gonna stop.I regularly go home and that will be different from someone who has been there for sometime and only gets to read 2 newspaper article about an incident.Yes,life is precious but it's all up to u to conduct a thorough research before making conclusions.I suggest u review ur decision and do ur proper research.

TigerOC

Respect for Law starts at the top. If your leaders have no respect for the Law who should? I have pointed out examples in previous post. You are talking about one of the most lawless societies in the World in RSA. If friends and family participate in breaches of law they must be accountable as is the responsibility of any person living in a civilised society.


Yeah I was "forced" to participate in the process although I had done nothing illegal in terms of the current law. All the normal self cleansing clap trap that is processed for "official" consumption. You note that NOT A SINGLE leader of the ANC top brass fessed up to their atrocities both inside and outside the RSA during the period in question. So this was all about what the "apartheid regime" did to the majority. Perverse and unjust as normal.



What a cop out again. i had numerous friends killed during the Chimurenga. I didn't resort to becoming a killer, rapist and arsonist. This is not an excuse. The ANC staged an illegal and violent uprising against the legal Government of the RSA which was a sovereign state. Those are facts. The fact that certain sections of the World did not approve of the political policy in the RSA is immaterial. Do not start pointing fingers about what went on because what is going on in many parts of Africa is multiple times worse than anything that happened in the RSA.

1066

Ask any of the English - German -Italian people in SA about their own countries ........ they will probably come out with more negatives than positives .... that's why they left.

It's called human nature.

How can anybody outside of SA help? It needs to come from inside the country. From the people who are supposed to be running the country.
No amount of intervention from outside will make the slightest bit of difference .... and don't quote the end of apartheid as an example of me being wrong, because that change came from within the country.

I live in England, and I criticise that, too. I suppose I'm just an ingrate who is never satisfied.

Oh dear, so sue me!

Juggernaut

I agree with you, it should start at the top and everyone should be held accountable all the way down .I dont think we're lawless but South african have a lot less repect for the law than we should. Have a few dops at a braai then jump behind the steering wheel. A new traffic points system is in the testing phase in Tswane(Pretoria to the uninitiated).A tiny example I know but I believe the political will is there to tackle lawlessness.

Your absolute disgust for the process suggest you were involved in something .maybe not illegal but maybe ...immoral ?

I've never made any excuses for killers, rapists and murderers. How did you make that leap?
A legal government ? A legal government ? Are you listening to yourself .Let me start by saying I deplore what Mugabe has done to Zimbabwe but let us look at those "facts" of yours.
"RSA was a sovereign state" - So is Zim .Does that mean whatever happens there is their business ?
"The Government in RSA was legal" - Millions of South africans were prevented from voting for years through state enforced legislation. Mugabe Killed, maimed and intimidated a large proportion of his population ,preventing them from voting . Is his Government Legal as well ?
"The fact that certain sections of the World did not approve of the political policy in the RSA is immaterial." - Is the worlds disapproval of happenings in Zim immaterial .Should the EU and States not bother with comdemning the status quo in Zim.


Seeing others suffer doesnt make my own any more bearable does it?
Me mentioning crime elsewhere in the world does'nt detract from the pain and humiliation felt by victims of crime in S.A.

Theres a lot of expats on here that I would love to return to SA .About others I wonder.

TigerOC

Here we go again. You live in a sovereign country and abide by the laws of that country and make decisions based on the laws of that country. Simultaneously you employ the services of a sooth sayer who will warn you that in 20 years time the World is going to be dominated by Liberal politicians and then you are going to be judged by their rules. Give me a break.

You see everyone assumes that everything that has happened in the RSA is right and that everything that happened in the past is wrong. If you disagree you are a racist. Guess what; the move to democracy in Africa has been an unmitigated disaster not least for the poor. I will repeat what I said above; these so called African Nationalists who have come to power are neither in it for the benefit of their people or democracy, they are there for themselves and to hell with anyone else. Look around you. There are 35 countries by the latest count in Africa with no democracy and furthermore they suffer from extreme poverty and oppression and further they rely on aid from their former colonisers to survive.


Well you can lump it or leave it, but the Republic of South Africa was a sovereign state as defined and was recognised as such by the UN etc. The fact that other countries disagreed with policy does not make the Government illegal. It can only be illegal if it violates its own constitution. A constitution that was formulated in the first instance by the British Govt at the formation of the Union in 1910 following an illegal invasion of the Boer Republics by British forces in 1899. Mr Mugabe has violated his own constitution and has therefore become an illegal regime in terms of his own constitution. Note that no Govt has to date removed him from power despite previous violations.

I can assure you the New South Africa or the ANC ruled South Africa is no different. A pity you cannot ask the hundreds of IFP workers murdered in the Richmond area of Natal by the ANC commander there, prior to the elections. When brought to trial for the organised murders of political opponents he used the new ANC laws of disclosure to get the names of the witnesses for the State and had them killed as well. The State had no option but to drop the case against him. Certain parties took the law into their own hands and shot him dead on the steps of the High Court in Pietermaritzburg

You know what I most love about Liberals is the fact that the most important thing for them is the ability to cast a vote in an election. It doesn't matter that you are starving, have no education system, no healthcare, clean water or housing. The ability to vote is going to fix that. Look at the 35 countries in Africa that had the vote (once) and are starving, dying of HIV/AIDS, malaria, etc and now have a life expectancy of 30+. Democracy is really great.

Juggernaut

It is, ask Bush .He was willing to invade two sovereign countries to bring democracy to the great unwashed.
Why is democracy great for Britain, America, et al and bad for Africa. Thats because colonisers always had paternalistic mentality that Africans dont know whats good for them but we do .Our brand of religion ,morality ,values.

In southern Africa, Botswana can thank their lucky stars for leaders such as KhamaIII and later Seretse Khama in their early years for gaining self determination from the british staight away. Its no coincidence that they have been oneof the most stable and prosperous countries in Africa.

In S.A' s case white afrikaners took it one step further after a brutal Boer war they made themselves into the new masters of the land .Hell bent on maintaining their own dominance they instituted the policy of apartheid. Bantu Education Act became the pillar of the apartheid project a piece of legislation intended to separate black South Africans from the main, comparatively very well-resourced education system for whites. Authored by Dr H F Verwoerd (then Minister of Native Affairs, later Prime Minister), it established a Black Education Department in the Department of Native Affairs.

They were tasked with the compilation of a curriculum that suited the 'nature and requirements of the black people. Mathematics was not seen as a part of this curriculum as Dr Verwoerd was quoted as saying, 'What is the use of teaching a Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice'.

I'm sure you gonna say I'm blaming Apartheid again for all our woes but am i wrong.
To move forward ,Yes we should take responsibility for our own destiny .

Pablo

Juggernaut, once you accept that Africans (by which I assume you mean blacks or black Africans) possess a particular "brand of religion, morality, values" or a special black or African "worldview", then you are on precisely the same path as Verwoerd, whom you criticise; or the Nazis, for whom there was "Jewish science" and "Aryan science" and so on.

Just as modern exponents of "multiculturalism" like to claim that each race or "culture" and each subgroup (e.g., women, lesbians, etc) have some special worldview that no others can share or comprehend. It is an apartheid of the mind.

No one has a God-given right to rule. If you cannot, or will not, rule well, then you lose the title to rule. As for democracy, it is only as good as those who make up that democracy.

The objection to black rule in Africa was that blacks would mess it up.

TigerOC

Your posts continually display signs of selective memory. Here you refer to Bush. The invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq by American forces relates;
(a) to the hosting, arming and training of terrorist entities who attacked the sovereign territory of the USA (Twin Towers in New York aka 9/11). This makes Afghanistan an accessory to an Act of War. The USA was entitled to attack Afghanistan on this basis. They want to ensure that there is a stable Govt in Afghanistan so that there is no repeat attack. That is their right as a conquering nation. Note that Germany is still to this day effectively a "occupied territory" as a result of WW2.
(b) According to intelligence, much of it British intel, Iraq was hosting terror groups also intent on attacking the USA and Britain and was also developing ballistic missiles and was consistently warned not to do so. Again the USA has a right to ensure a stable Govt is in place before vacating the country. Whether the allies verified the detail is open to debate but this has no place in this forum.


You have not studied your history. The Kingdom of what was known as Bechuanaland requested British Protection and became a British Protectorate. This was substantially different to being a colony. The Royal family could at any stage opt out of the Protectorate status.

Again you have studied the British version of history of the 2nd Anglo-Boer War. The fact is that the War was an illegal invasion of the 2 Boer Republics engineered by Cecil Rhodes and others on the basis that the franchise rights of British miners in the Boer Republics was too long. The truth was that Rhodes and other wealthy British businessmen wanted to get their hands on the Gold.

The British have not told you about the War crimes perpetrated by them during this War. The thousands of old men and women, wives and children of Boer farmers/commandos who were interned in concentration camps with inadequate food, water, sanitation and health care. The tens of thousands that died in these camps as a result of the conditions. Their homes, farms and livestock were destroyed and expropriated by the British. When the war ended the Boer people were denied basic care and education and subjected to inhuman abuse. This resulted in a huge population of white indigents who had no education and were competing with Blacks for manual labouring jobs right into the late 1940's, 40 years after the end of the war. I still remember seeing many of these people even in the '80's. In accordance with the Constitution of the Union of South Africa, Afrikaans Nationalists formed the National Party. As they constituted the majority according to the voter registration requirements they got into power in 1946. Their primary focus was to redress the injustices of the last 50 years. Many of the so-called apartheid laws were introduced to ensure that their electorate (the poor white Afrikaaner) could get work, education and form an Afrikaans middle class. If the National Party had failed in this then they would have let their own electorate down.

So you see that what happened in South Africa was the direct result of Britain's illegal War and occupation of the Boer Republics. A war that had no other purpose than the individual greed of Rhodes et al and the furtherance of British Colonisation and subjugation. You also note that the British Govt have still not officially apologised for their gross violation of Human Rights of the Afrikaans Nations and neither have they compensated them for their loss. Instead they continued denigrate and humiliate the Afrikaaner. Perhaps they have never got over the military humiliation that these small bands of troopers inflicted on them. The one recognition comes in the term "commando" (from Kommando) which honours the highly mobile, aggressive, tactician that typified the Boer troopers.

By the way I am of Cornish stock and have no Afrikaans ancestry. I am VERY ashamed of what my people perpetrated against these peaceful farmers who just wanted live their own lives in their own way. The British people owe them an apology and they should be compensated for the losses they suffered.

Pablo

These endless demands for apology for the past are all the rage, and they are such a lot of empty posturing nonsense.

TigerOC

Hope you never say that to a die-hard Afrikaaner.

Pablo

I recall, a few posts ago, you were expatiating on the absurdity of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, when the actual perpetrators of various crimes or "crimes" were apologising for what they did. That had its absurd side too, but at least those who actually committed the acts apologised or at least fessed up to those they did them to, or their immediate relatives. It was a show, put on for the people. But its had its point in the politics of the time.

But for "a people" to apologise to another "people" for some perceived wrong dredged out of the history books, for a time before any of them were born, is no more than one abstraction apologising to another abstraction about a fantasy.

And while we are on the subject of the TRC, while it is true what you said, that to assign guilt retrospectively for what was not considered blameworthy in the past is ridiculous, it is also true that some things remain wrong irrespective of what the law of the land says.

gilliana

Juggernaut, thank you ....

gilliana

And SA has nothing to offer?

Whine, whine, whine.... mmmm..... and what exactly have you done about your opinions re SA.....

Lastly, its not a narrow little experience... I may be young (32..so thank you for your kind compliments)... but I lived through apartheid (as a child) and when i turned 18 i was old enough to vote and stand in the voting queue with a 65 year old black man, who also voted for the first time.... very humbling experience. Ever since then i have read every book i can about apartheid. Learned about Joe Slovo, Ruth First, Desmond Tutu..and of course The Mandela... all very big inspirations and not because they voiced their opinion as we do on a forum.

They acted and they fought for their belief.

gilliana

so Mandela is released...what do you think millions of oppressed black people are thinking? revenge? human nature...

actually i cannot believe your comments... i cannot believe you think the TRC was a show. How do you compensate millions of people for years of abuse and oppression?????? As Tutu said, it would cripple the economy to compensate in monetary terms... so lets get those who are guilty to confess publicly and the families can feel they have a sense of justice.

but once again, i'm a fuzzy, emotional person and you probably the cold hard logic type... so we differ. However... just put yourself in their shoes, not for a day... but for a few years... and see how you feel when you suddenly get the right to vote. When your father was beaten to a pulp every day, your brother murdered for terrorist suspicion, your sister raped cos just she was black... and you stand / run safely (whatever it is that you do) ...

Do not tell me i am naive or i whine because i am 32. You need to get a little more real than that. I lived it too.

gilliana

You see...its not about apologising...its about facing what happened

I have an afrikaner friend- we cannot discuss politics - it always ends in an argument... his take on the whole apartheid is that it was ok, there were maybe a few incidences of police brutality but it was all called for..????????? I sit, I listen, and I wonder... is this how people really think?

Are people that ignorant to what happened? So we up and leave and we criticise...