Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Hi Stu
I lived in Zambia for 4 years and now looking to take up long term residence in SA as I also love it. I am currently in Cape Town doing a Yachting Course and want to make this my home. How do I do this? Do I have to have a million dollars or marry a SA resident... is there anyway other way I can do it?

If you do not know can you point me in the right direction
Cheers
Freespirit1965

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Can't talk about the rest of your "comments", but the prime rate is 8% - makes me wonder if you know anything that you are talking about!

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

At last a sensible post - crime is indeed a problem. The reason for the crime is the inequity between the haves and the have nots (I am referring to SA, not some of the other countries you mentioned). The reason for the malaise across Africa is a combination of poor leadership and management and tribal / territorial disputes stemming from colonial days (a bit like Israel / Palestinians - whereever one has artificial borders imposed there will be problems).

The sad reality is that whatever the white population faces in SA on the crime front - it is nothing to what the blacks (especially the poor ones) have to deal with on a day to day basis. The long term resolution is mass education (and sensible health policies, especially with regards to AIDS). Until then - the terrible history of this wonderful country will continue to contribute to the high crime rate (any country with an unemployment rate of close to 40% - the "real" rate is going to have crime issues).

If one is sensible one can eliminate some of the risks with regards to crime (I was in New York pre Guliani and it was a much more dangerous city than it is today). J'burg / Cape Town have improved substantially over the last 2-3 years but alot needs to be done to prevent crime, and importantly to increase employment. It's not rocket science!

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Not sure what your beef is. SA has a crime problem, but nowhere on the scale that you are trying to suggest. Take a look at the UN website - they have an annual survey on world crime (so does "the Economist") - SA is not near the top - I'm not sure where you have travelled to in the world but I agree with "the Economist" article in particular - Venezuela, Brazil, Russia, China (parts of Pakistan / India) are far, far worse (but then these are not English speaking countries so you may not be interested in them!). Half of South America is officially (and unofficially) more dangerous than SA.

The worst crime figures in J'burg do not touch the dark days of New York in the 80s - I find it incredible (I'm not disputing that crime is bad) how white South Africans have inflated this issue - if I was being cynical I would say it was a good "excuse" to leave black South Africa.

Grow up - even today, J'burg's murder rate is less tham 1 per 100,000 than New York - this is not good, but it adds some perspective to the debate!

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Seriously guys.. this debate is silly.

Its different for everyone. Its about what you as a person are willing to accept as a lifestyle choice.

Im single, young and dont have family in SA anymore. My family moved to the UK for their own reasons and I followed a couple years later.

Im now at the point where the experience I have gained working in the UK is twice as valuable as my university degree. I have been home (yes, that is what it is to me) more than a few times in the last 3 years and everytime I come back to the Uk feeling more positive about the place than the time before.

I will be returning to SA at the end of the year and I am so looking forward to it. Of course, Im going to miss my family very much but we all agree that Im young and if I feel that I could make a life for myself in SA... then why not?

As I said before, I dont have kids so my safety is my only concern. Im not ignorant and I realise the kind of things that can happen to you in South Africa. I also realise that no matter how vigilant you are sometimes bad things happen, and perhaps the chance of them happening is far greater in South Africa than most other places (no statistics calculated).

I view my choice to return as a bit of a win some lose some situation. But it all depends on what means more to you. In the Uk I feel relatively safe (although I wouldnt walk through some places in the dark) but my lifestyle makes me miserable - I work 12 hrs a day, I cant do the outdoors things I adore the most, the weather is crap. Whereas in South Africa Im willing to sacrifice a little peace of mind for the those things that I truly enjoy.

You cannot compare the UK to SA in any real world. Apples and Pears as they say. One country that is one of the oldest civilisations around and a fairly new country. All I know is that I have experienced crime in SA and Ive experienced crime in the UK (of the worst kind too). When it comes to crime too, apples and pears, the perpetrators motives are vastly different. Without generalising in any amount, the great proportion of south african crime is driven by poor circumstances and the knowledge that its easy to get away with - In the UK its mostly just pure human evil and bad discipline that drives. Gives me a little hope that if the South Africa can sort out its economic issues the inherent human goodness that we are born with will prevail. (not naive as some would say but hopeful!)

Its all a very personal decision, and I feel terribly sorry for those who are in SA but would do anything to get out but cant due to financial or visa reasons whatever. But Im grateful that I have been given the opportunity to experience the Uk and Im grateful that I have a place like SA to come back to.

Im not an unrealistic person and Im quite aware of the PR talk of the homecoming revolution. But I truly believe that something is happening in SA and if the outcome is good or bad I want to be a part of it. Fortunately for me having a british born father my options will always be open.

But what is important to me right now is my happiness. Who knows... One day when I grow up, have kids and my priorities change ... Ill be back in the UK placing their safety ahead of my original reasons for returning.

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

I have to agree. A very balanced post.

However don't be to hard on the other posters, we all are very passionate about South Africa no matter what our views so a little heat in the debate is expected.

Bruce.

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

My beef is with the fact that people who are in the business of making a buck from their fellow expats portray S.A. as a crime-free paradise, when we know that it is not, that you have a very real chance of being a violent crime statistic.

Those youngsters who are going back, I can well understand it, having lived in Zims for years after independence - just make sure you have a way out, because mark my words, you will need it one day.

Zimbabwean youngsters were even more positive that Zims would be different and would be a shining example to Africa than S.A. youngsters are, with Zims not having half the challenges that S.A. has to face.

Africa will always live in our blood, but unfortunately, I don't want my blood to land up being spilled in Africa.

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Wow, I am amazed how long this thread is.
I hate to bad mouth my beloved country, but alas, I must warn people to stay clear.

I also want to warn people to seriously think twice before moving to SA.
I was born and raised in a small town in the Eastern Cape and later on worked for 4 years in Jhb.
All my family is still in SA, but I am now temporary for the past 4 years in the US.

If you are going to SA all by yourself, then that is your own choice, but please consider not staying if you have family. Putting your own life in danger is technically suicide, putting someone else's in danger is reckless endangerment which basically equates to murder. People can quibble as much as they like about stats, but once someone you know died, you will be the person who suffer. Can you live with that guilt or take that risk?

You can ask any Saffie who is not in self denial and they will tell you crime is out of hand and violent. If it were but only theft and burglaries, I can live with that, for my insurance can compensate me for the inconvenience.
But it is not just an annoyance or inconvenience, these are accompanied by violence which includes killing, rape and torture.
I don't care about the stats, just look at the country today vs. what it was for people who where there.
Or compare it to other cities of the west, and you will quickly come to the conclusion it is not safe.
I feel safer is bad areas in the US, than in Jnb.
It is not just a feeling of ignorance, but I can see that it is safer in the bad US areas. Just look at any block in JNB and you will see more barb wire, high walls, security guards and cameras than anything else. You would swear you entered a war zone or some high security prison.
Do you see that in even a run-down areas in the US or UK? Probably not.
I used to ask my American colleagues who came to to SA for 3 months at a time to count how many police vehicles they spotted in 1 week vs how many security guards or cars they saw, the guards outnumber the police by more than 20 to 1 in JNB.
Keep in mind that the security guards are privately paid for.

I can understand theft and burglary and totally accept that because of the poverty and more than 45% unemployment rate.
But people don't need to kill or rape to steal for their survival. Yet it seems that many Saffies and the government ignore killing and raping.
Sorry but if I want a family, I will rather stay in icy Wisconsin, than to subject them to this madness.

I have lived in JNB for 4 years and of that 4 years I was involved in 4 incidents of theft and burglary, while in the house or car and know of many of my colleagues that were victims of all sorts of crime while working in JNB.
On the other hand, here in the US, I have also lived for almost 4 years and know of only 1 theft, but no violence experience by myself and colleagues.
People here in the US don't even lock their cars or homes, nevermind running for their life or live in constant fear, even with all the middle east war and the so called “war on terror”
One of the burglary incidents I experienced involed shots fired in the house I shared with my American colleagues and needless to say that 2 of the 3 burglars got killed by the security guards on the property, and 1 fled.
Given that we were not armed and the offenders were and thank God that the security company got there in time, were were ok, but it could just as well have had a complete different outcome. I am no fighter and don't like guns, so what chance do I stand in any fight with a hardened criminal? How can I protect my family if I have one?
People just fool themselves to think they are safe behind the 10foot walls and all those safety devices and that you just need to live sensible.
You can't avoid the crime in SA, it will come to you, as sure as it will snow in Wisconsin, it is just a matter of time.

I visited my small Karoo home town in Feb 06, and to my horror I saw how the town deteriorated. Not only was it the looks, but also people in town telling me how this quiet little town is now rife with crime including rapes, theft and killings. Previously the police was so bored, they were arresting drunks or provided a local taxi service, now one of the local constables admitted that he is too afraid of going out to arrest the criminals.
This just shows you that crimes used to be a big city thing, but now it is also in the small towns. Crime is the good old days were not mostly violent, but now it is.
I am sorry, but even in apartheid times when there were all the riots, it was safer than now. Even my maid in JNB confessed that the old government was better than the new one.

So think about crime and if you really want to play roulette with your life or not. Maybe the hardened war veteran can stomach it, but I can't.
Believe me, if you had to run for your life once, all that ignorance will be gone, and you will find it difficult to sleep even during the day. You will want to leave SA with all your might, but only the lucky once can leave, because it cost one a great deal to leave SA money wise and also family wise.

Here are other things to think about:
1) SA has very strict exchange control. Once you bring your money in, it is almost impossible to take it out.
2) Public health care is virtually non existent, and the state which public clinics and hospitals are in, you don't even want to lie dead there.
Medical insurance is ultra expensive and so is income tax.
At least in the UK, Oz and EU, you have high tax, but you have a good public services like health and school/uni system and pension.
In SA, "kak en betaal is die wet van Transvaal" (basically shit and pay for everything).
Given a SA salary, paying for a house, medical for the family, and school/uni, is going to cost you more than in the west, unless you want the public schooling or health care.
Public schooling used to be very good if not almost to international standards, but not any more.
3) You take a huge risk of buying fixed property in SA.
Yes the property marked is hot, with prices rising almost daily.
But there is a catch, if you have open land next door, the locals can put up a squatter camp next door, and if kept there for too long (longer than 2 weeks), they have the right to stay. Or even better, the government will buy the land next door and put up low cost housing.
What does that do to your million rand property? It tanks in such a way that you will almost want to give it away to get rid of it. So much for your investment.
4) If your skin is pale, forget about getting a job, unless you are either very lucky or you create it yourself. If you do create it yourself, remember the "black empowerment" thing. Remember whites are <10% of the population so it only makes sense that you will find it very hard to get a job.
Affirmative action also will see to it that even if you had brilliant credentials, that you will not be employed.
5) The latest pieve in the Eastern Cape as of Feb 06, is that due to drought and some towns struggling for water, the government now passed a law that the local government has the right to all water under and above ground.
It does not matter if that farmer drilled the borehole himself or that the borehole is on the farmers land, the boreholes, dams, rivers, etc. belongs now to the government, even if ther farmer build the dam himself.
Thus, if the muni. insists on that water they can take it without compensating the farmer. In fact the farmer has to pay muni water rates if he wanted to use that water and a meter is put in place to charge the famer for the water.
No doubt about it, farmers are pissed in the Eastern Cape, and some had to sell their farms for next to nothing, because it has no water.
The other thing is that if the government target a farmers land for so called “development”, the government decides what to pay for the farm to buy it (it is not fair maket value), whether the farmer likes the price or not. If the farmer puts up a fuss, the government can take the farm without paying the offered amount.
This also maddens local farmers.
So alas, the land grab of the ANC started, they just do it more clever and legal than the Zimbabweans, but is it right?

Don't get me wrong, SA has great weather, nature, natural resources, people and sadly used to have great infrastructure, healthcare and schools and public transport.
Africa can be a great place to live in, IF the people stop their violence and live in peace and harmony.
But it will probably not happen in my lifetime and it surely can't be done by only the people, the governments do play a huge role in mitigating and motivating the people and being a good example.

If you really must live in Africa, rather try Namibia or Botswana, it is safer there and their governments are fairly well run. They are building like mad in Botswana and the Pula (their currency) is stronger than the SA Rand, for a good reason (stability in their country).
They have their issues too like any other country, but at least you don't have to fear for your life.

I can live with poverty as I came from a poor family. I can live with a limited education, for I know people can be taught.
Hell, I can even tolerate theft and burglary, but I can't tolerate killings and rape.

I hope this was informative and that anyone considering to go to SA to live will seriously rethink their decision.
I encourage people to go to SA for a holiday, it is a great place to visit with unique experiences.
Hopefully by visiting for a limited time period, will also limit your chance becoming a statistic in the game of roulette with your's and your loved one's life.

Keep well and keep safe,

Cheers,

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

When was the last time you read the Sowetan?? :confused:

30 - 40 murders PER WEEKEND :eek:

Some perspective :rolleyes:

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

I ask you one question - would you let your wife and teenage daughter (if you have one) go out, in the evening in a car with no anti-hijacking device and no personal protection???

I am guessing the answer will be no - and thats the point. In what other CIVILISED country do we drive around with anti-hijacking devices in our cars and not drive at all at night if female? None is the answer.

Dont make SA out to be a safe country - its not, living there is taking a big risk. Many people will take it - and there will be some success stories, but I know the majority will find themselves trapped financially in a country where they are literal prisoners in their own homes.

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Hey Stu, I'm an expat South African living in Texas, USA. I'm planning on moving back to South Africa in May of 2007....are you still in SA and if so, what's your view on life in SA these days?

thanks

Darren

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

From what I have read about South Africa I'm not really sure why anyone would want to live there.

Canada and Australia both have good climates, and mostly Anglo populations. Australia has great weather, jobs, and people.

SA on the other hand seems to have quite high crime. You need huge walls around your house and can't go out at night. Your business has to be 51% black owned. Your cities have massive slums.

I honestly don't know why someone would live in SA rather than Australia.

:confused:

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Hi Stu,
Its over two years since you posted your original message. Do you still stand by what you said then or have things /your opinions of the Cape changed since then.
I should be moving to the Cape in 2007 with my S A husband so i hope things are still as positive. :)

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

Hi Stu,
Its over two years since you posted your original message. Do you still stand by what you said then or have things /your opinions of the Cape changed since then.
I should be moving to the Cape in 2007 with my S A husband so i hope things are still as positive. :)

Re: Anyone moving out to South Africa
 

"Stu" has gone quiet. Hardly surprising, when you consider what's going on out there. Even a committed ostrich would have difficulty. With respect, Diane, I urge you, rather than merely "hope", to do as much research as you can on newsfeeds, online Cape newspapers, and contacts with friends or acquaintance already out there.

Things have come to such a pass, recently, that old friends of mine who swore they'd never leave are now on their way out, professionals of all sorts who simply cannot put up with the hassle and grim prospects. Jacob "bring me my machine gun" Zuma's appalling court victories, his massive support among the vast majority who just don't care that he is probably a rapist and a crook, plus the acknowledgement, even by the president, that government is losing control of the levers of power, is finally driving them out.

Pablo