Originally Posted by el_richo

So is pulling them away from Family, friends, and a support network worth it?

[I'm actually focussing on those who imply their sole reason for moving is for the kids. Or their sole reason for not returning to the UK is for the kids. Many people give more reasoning than this.


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Originally Posted by Strawberry

One would assume though, these parents know their kids and whats best for them far better than you.....

Originally Posted by el_richo

No doubt that they do but do they really have to move across the planet to achieve this?

Probably not.

Again, just to clarify, this context is based solely on those who emphasise moving/staying "for the kids".

Originally Posted by Strawberry

1. I don't know if it is a good idea yet to move, Family - would be willing to visit - most of family state that its "quality not quantity" time should be spent with grandkids... Friends - best friends off to NZ in Sept. ..... Support Network - ??????????????? - no different - parents are that aren't they???

Originally Posted by Strawberry

okay okay ...............I got it.....

Originally Posted by dbd33

I'd like to argue against the motion.

I have kids. My brothers have kids of a similar age. Mine grew up in Toronto and suburbs, one brother's kids on the south coast of England, the other's in really rural Ontario. All have feckless parents with complicated domestic arrangements and a casual disregard for the laws of the land, particularly in regard to substance ingestion.

All the children started with sex, drinking and drugs at about age 14. Moving to Canada doesn't entail removing their hormones. All became caught up in the cult of celebrity early on though the role models differed, whether music and fashion is better or worse than sport and violence as features of one's heros is, I think, debatable.

I think difference in outcome between these sets of children is down to specific circumstances, not country. The quality of school available, at the level of funding achievable by the parents, was better in Toronto. The nature of the drugs on offer is more frightening in rural Ontario; an experiment with weed doesn't do lasting damage, an experiment with meth will. Birth control seems poorly practised in Southern England, not getting pregnant while in high school is, I think, a crucial factor in the lifetime potential for girls.

One difference in favour of Canada, Toronto specifically, I do accept is that the level of casual violence is much lower in Canada. Yes, there are street gangs and brawls outside dance halls and, yes, more people get shot in Canada (of course, because everyone who wants one has a gun) but it's not usual for every evening to end in a punch up. This matters not because of the potential for injury but because the lack of concern about going to places, at night or whenever, leads to a more confident personality.

I also think that growing up among a diverse population is a good thing, by way of example, there was a significant minority of pupils at my children's school who spoke primarily Spanish, in consequence the other children learned Spanish almost by osmosis; this breadth of incidental learning is, I think, something that comes about as a result of diversity and an atmosphere of acceptance of that diversity.

This text was not funded in any part by the Toronto District School Board.

Originally Posted by lins and Stef McLachlan

Our Police have their hands tied by bureaucracy and red tape and are not proactive the majority of the time. I always think that values in Canada are better, the Police much more proactive and problems sorted out before they can escalate.

Originally Posted by el_richo

Support network of the children was meant to include Parents, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Friends, Grandparents, etc.

As for quality over quantity. I agree to a point. It's great to spend weeks at a time with people you love. However, it's also difficult, for those close to or reliant on their support network to spend upwards of a year away from them. Psychologically, the physical distance can have an impact on all parties involved. I wonder how impacted the children are without the direct influence of this support network. My grandparents had a huge positive influence in how i shaped my life, for example. Just a thought.


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Originally Posted by lins and Stef McLachlan

Children in the UK are broadly speaking and in my opinion less respectful of others and in a society where crime is reportedly escalating, they face difficulties through peer pressure and a lack of family discipline.

We do have an established YOB culture and constant reports of children committing crime from a very young age too.

Our Police have their hands tied by bureaucracy and red tape and are not proactive the majority of the time. What does have to be said is that we only ever get to hear about those kids who cause all the problems and not those who are 'good kids'.

Where I have been in Canada, I have never seen large groups of youths kicking their heels together on street corners. I always think that values in Canada are better, the Police much more proactive and problems sorted out before they can escalate. There is much more community related cohesion and it seems that kids are not in such a hurry to grow up there.

They do have respect for their elders, but I do think the elders earn their kids respect by leading by example. Volunteering is big in Canada and that also helps the communities to get along better. There is crime, but not the same FEAR of crime...so Canadian kids do have more freedom to learn and grow....I know as a mother in the UK...it scared the hell out of me letting my kids out of my sight....so many well publicised dangers.....that will inevitably stunt their growth into adulthood.

The world as I see it...personally I cannot wait for us to move to Canada in August.
Hope this makes sense
Stef

Originally Posted by el_richo

Support network of the children was meant to include Parents, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Friends, Grandparents, etc.

Originally Posted by Bramley

values are instilled at a very early age

Originally Posted by Bramley

Totally agree with you on this one I worked as a manager in the youth service and have worked with young people for 18 years. I finished work 6 months prior to moving and boy was I glad to get out, teenagers were actually beginning to scare me.In Canada I don't feel intimidated by teenagers at all, values are instilled at a very early age, they are more respectful and definitely stay children for longer.

Originally Posted by dbd33

What values and by whom? I know, for example, a family who moved from near where I live now to Brampton in order that their children attend a strict Muslim school. Is insistence on the wearing of a burka an example of these lauded values?

Originally Posted by Bramley

We all have different values, yours won't be the same as mine but that doesn't mean mine are any better or worse than yours and I certainly wouldn't question anyone elses just because I didn't agree with it. How would you feel if someone questioned yours?

Originally Posted by el_richo

In my limited experience around kids, i don't see any difference between the respect shown and given of those in Canada and those in the UK. Nor do i see an escalation of child crime other than occasional media hype. I'd be interested to know how much contact you have, and how much child crime and disrespect you see during your daily life (assuming you're not a teacher or police officer).



Again, how often do you see reports of, or actually witness children committing crime. Real crime, not littering, for example. As for Yob culture, again i don't witness this unless i place myself into a situation or an area where this is likely. How often are you involved with or witnessing Yob culture?



I don't believe the police are any less proactive than the Canadian authorities. As for not hearing about kids doing good, surely this is the media's doing, not society?



As DBD says, there are of course large groups of kids loitering in areas in Canada. I can honestly say that i don't notice large groups loitering in many areas of the UK. Maybe i just ignore it, who knows. On a daily basis, in the UK, how often do you see kids loitering with the look of intent and who you feel are threatening?



I mean no offence by this at all but this last comment says quite a lot in my opinion. First my initial thought is that you, as a helicopter parent, and with this outlook, stunt your childrens "growth" and experiences to the point where it could negatively impact them.

Secondly, perception is a huge factor in your acceptability and if you don't feel safe (of which is subjective and in ones own mind) then this impacts how you as a parent allow your children to grow. Since the UK is no more dangerous than Canada, nor are kids more likely to fail in the UK, but if you as the parent have more confidence in Canada, then that's great.

So really, moving "for the kids" may actually work if only because it changes the parental mentality even though inherent issues and dangers are no different.


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