"Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Having read many times on here that people move to Canada "for the kids", and that "kids are kids for much longer" in Canada, these articles make me smile. Is that wrong?

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Article 2

I still think that in the larger scope, the same kid will do just as well in the UK as they would in Canada, albeit much closer to their family in the UK, a bigger house in Canada, and with differing opportunities in both places (ice skating on a lake in Canada for example).

Edited to add: To clarify, i have no kids and i'm sitting in my office, bored.

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Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Children in the UK are broadly speaking and in my opinion less respectful of others and in a society where crime is reportedly escalating, they face difficulties through peer pressure and a lack of family discipline.

We do have an established YOB culture and constant reports of children committing crime from a very young age too.

Our Police have their hands tied by bureaucracy and red tape and are not proactive the majority of the time. What does have to be said is that we only ever get to hear about those kids who cause all the problems and not those who are 'good kids'.

Where I have been in Canada, I have never seen large groups of youths kicking their heels together on street corners. I always think that values in Canada are better, the Police much more proactive and problems sorted out before they can escalate. There is much more community related cohesion and it seems that kids are not in such a hurry to grow up there.

They do have respect for their elders, but I do think the elders earn their kids respect by leading by example. Volunteering is big in Canada and that also helps the communities to get along better. There is crime, but not the same FEAR of crime...so Canadian kids do have more freedom to learn and grow....I know as a mother in the UK...it scared the hell out of me letting my kids out of my sight....so many well publicised dangers.....that will inevitably stunt their growth into adulthood.

The world as I see it...personally I cannot wait for us to move to Canada in August.
Hope this makes sense
Stef

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

OK. A reply from one also bored sitting in ones office...... but I have 4 kids of varying ages - heres my twopenneth:-

Bad stuff goes on around the world!!! yep.

Its a matter of lifestyle I think and what you would like your children to experience, and what is achievable in one location over another. We as parents only want to do whats best for our children whatever it may be!! Whats right for one family isn't for another etc. I don't think anyone moves just because "it will be better for the kids" - its just another possible factor, also dependent on where you live in the UK!!!!!!!

Could my children be happy and achieve well in Canada - of course, as long as they are with us, their parents!!.

And yes, monkey man, it is wrong to make you smile. :(

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

I'd like to argue against the motion.

I have kids. My brothers have kids of a similar age. Mine grew up in Toronto and suburbs, one brother's kids on the south coast of England, the other's in really rural Ontario. All have feckless parents with complicated domestic arrangements and a casual disregard for the laws of the land, particularly in regard to substance ingestion.

All the children started with sex, drinking and drugs at about age 14. Moving to Canada doesn't entail removing their hormones. All became caught up in the cult of celebrity early on though the role models differed, whether music and fashion is better or worse than sport and violence as features of one's heros is, I think, debatable.

I think difference in outcome between these sets of children is down to specific circumstances, not country. The quality of school available, at the level of funding achievable by the parents, was better in Toronto. The nature of the drugs on offer is more frightening in rural Ontario; an experiment with weed doesn't do lasting damage, an experiment with meth will. Birth control seems poorly practised in Southern England, not getting pregnant while in high school is, I think, a crucial factor in the lifetime potential for girls.

One difference in favour of Canada, Toronto specifically, I do accept is that the level of casual violence is much lower in Canada. Yes, there are street gangs and brawls outside dance halls and, yes, more people get shot in Canada (of course, because everyone who wants one has a gun) but it's not usual for every evening to end in a punch up. This matters not because of the potential for injury but because the lack of concern about going to places, at night or whenever, leads to a more confident personality.

I also think that growing up among a diverse population is a good thing, by way of example, there was a significant minority of pupils at my children's school who spoke primarily Spanish, in consequence the other children learned Spanish almost by osmosis; this breadth of incidental learning is, I think, something that comes about as a result of diversity and an atmosphere of acceptance of that diversity.

This text was not funded in any part by the Toronto District School Board.

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

As a parent, I take sole responsibility for my kids' upbringing, not a country.

My kids will hang out on street corners, be disrespectful, stay out late unsupervised etc. etc etc. if I let them. If I choose to let them run feral, moving countries isn't going to change their behaviour.

People who claim that moving countries will somehow fundamentally change the behaviour of their children or the manner in which they're brought up are kidding themselves.

There are plenty good kids and good parents in the UK.

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

I'm a good parent, moved to the country where there are no buses and no neighbours, the only way they can get anywhere is to ask for a lift ;)

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Try the front steps of any school. Avoiding the extreme examples of the poor parts of town, there are always kids on the steps of Jarvis Collegiate (a gang calling themselves the "Tamil Tigers"), Riverdale Collegiate (the something triad) and the College Francais (if they're a gang I don't know what they're called). They hang out, they smoke, they bounce basketballs. They're not threatening but they are "large groups of youths kicking their heels".

I've no idea where this idea comes from. The police stop their car, arrest some kid who's been careless in displaying his beer bottle or his joint and whisk him away. The police live in far suburbs, often close to one another, they're white, they have parents from Canada, English is their first language, they're very much detached from the people they police. If "proactive" means anything at all it surely doesn't mean this.

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

I completely agree with this sentiment , it would seem to me that the teen pregnancy rate is lower here ( purely a subjective view I have no stats to back this up). I also find that slightly bizarre as it my opinion birth control would be a lot easier for a UK teen to access than a Torontonian one ( given that the pill is free in the UK and pretty much everyone has a family GP)

Again I agree that the quality of the school plays a huge part. Now that I work at a nice fee paying independent girls school rather than chav-high, I really do think that the girls stay more childlike , for longer.

Whether this is down to it being an all girls school or not I couldn't say

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

As to the ethnicity of cops, yes, in rural areas by and large they are Caucasian however in Toronto the make up seems to be pretty diverse by comparison....I notice this when in the city as it is in contrast to rural Ontario.

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Yes but the point is, could your kids be equally as happy and achieving in the UK?

And i smile mainly because, in the context of this subject, people often believe what they want to believe and see what they want to see. :)


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Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Yes, a serious effort at diversifying the police has been made. Our office manager was given a speeding ticket by a cop of Indian extraction. "They hate us, he only gave me a ticket because I'm Jewish" she complained, improbably.

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Of course they could , indeed they are doing, in fact this is the problem with emigrating, we are starting to feel guilty for considering moving them :unsure:. We want to do whats best for us all in the long run, and at the moment I am unsure what that is...

I know you were smiling in context but, to imply that us parents often see what we want to and believe what we want without thoroughly researching everything is a bit daft, we all weigh up the pro's and con's before shifting our brood to the other half of the world you know..;)

:)

Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

In my limited experience around kids, i don't see any difference between the respect shown and given of those in Canada and those in the UK. Nor do i see an escalation of child crime other than occasional media hype. I'd be interested to know how much contact you have, and how much child crime and disrespect you see during your daily life (assuming you're not a teacher or police officer).

Again, how often do you see reports of, or actually witness children committing crime. Real crime, not littering, for example. As for Yob culture, again i don't witness this unless i place myself into a situation or an area where this is likely. How often are you involved with or witnessing Yob culture?

I don't believe the police are any less proactive than the Canadian authorities. As for not hearing about kids doing good, surely this is the media's doing, not society?

As DBD says, there are of course large groups of kids loitering in areas in Canada. I can honestly say that i don't notice large groups loitering in many areas of the UK. Maybe i just ignore it, who knows. On a daily basis, in the UK, how often do you see kids loitering with the look of intent and who you feel are threatening?

I mean no offence by this at all but this last comment says quite a lot in my opinion. First my initial thought is that you, as a helicopter parent, and with this outlook, stunt your childrens "growth" and experiences to the point where it could negatively impact them.

Secondly, perception is a huge factor in your acceptability and if you don't feel safe (of which is subjective and in ones own mind) then this impacts how you as a parent allow your children to grow. Since the UK is no more dangerous than Canada, nor are kids more likely to fail in the UK, but if you as the parent have more confidence in Canada, then that's great.

So really, moving "for the kids" may actually work if only because it changes the parental mentality even though inherent issues and dangers are no different.


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Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

So is pulling them away from Family, friends, and a support network worth it?

I'm actually focussing on those who imply their sole reason for moving is for the kids. Or their sole reason for not returning to the UK is for the kids. Many people give more reasoning than this.


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Re: "Kids are kids for much longer"
 

Quite. In the UK the media plays a hugely irresponsible role in the perception of crime.

Frankly, most people don't 'need' to leave Britain. they just need to stop reading the Daily Mail and the Express.

Serious question for you... ignoring whatever you've read in the newspapers, how many paedophiles, rapists, murderers, Romanian organised criminals, child killers, drug dealers or Yardies have you actually had to deal with? Ever?