Desert Dubliner

Yes and that is the wrongdoing by the Church organisation, should be followed up and dealt with by the law enforcement agencies of the state. It can be understood (not equals justified); due to its self-preservation instinct (it is after all the oldest surviving organisation on the planet) the default mode is cover up. Still, one can believe in the goodness of the Christian moral code and necessity of adhering to it in the same way we can believe in the necessity of having armed defense forces even though sometimes they cover up their deadly mistakes.

Norm_uk

I simply don't need to fear punishment to know it's wrong.

Aside from not wanting it to happen to me it t rubbishes the concept of personal property - a leading concept of being civilised.

Does it trouble you that I won't rape, steal or kill for no reason even when there are no consequences for me or are you simply curious that others can have morals without punishments to base them on?

N.

Desert Dubliner

It does not bother me at all. It is just that much of your own morality is derived from or matches the Christian morals.

Miss Anne Thrope

That's a fairly blinkered assumption. Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism all pre-date Christianity by centuries and offer similar (perhaps even superior) moral codes. Certainly Christianity ofers nothing significant in terms of morality that was not already being widely preached - albeit perhaps not in the Roman world.

Meow

I'd venture to suggest that is coincidental and does make anyone a Christian. More likely to be the other way round...

Frankly it is a mystery to me why anyone is religious. There is no evidence of any deity, no real need for it (other than nefarious ones) and the blind adherence to some nebulous system of beliefs, without ever truly questioning it is both illogical and unsupportable.

OleJanx

scrubbedexpat141

I like this post.

I struggle with religion on the basis (I think I'm repeating myself from another thread) that it depends on where and when you were born / raised.

Dawkins made the point that because 'Jane' here is a Christian doesn't mean her God is THE God. If she were born in Saudi, she'd be a Muslim and follow Allah, if she were born in certain parts of India she'd follow a host of Hindu Gods, if she were born in...etc etc etc etc.

That's the most damning argument against religion and it's lack of plausibility in my eyes. It's by chance you believe in the Bible and it's teachings instead of another religion.

Desert Dubliner

This is the same as saying the following in relation to an invention (for purpose of discussion only) of magnetic propulsion on Earth: "this is insignificant as the magnetic propulsion technology exists everywhere in the universe except on Earth".

redShark

Ok, let me see how many of the self proclaimed atheistes on here are of the first category:
If your little loved one is lying on a hospital bed fighting for his/her life , would you go "Please God help me" ????

OleJanx

No. You're born, you live a dull life and you die. End of.

Desert Dubliner

That wasn't the point. The point was that there is no reason to reject Christian morality as even most of the atheists are following it almost to the letter.

One can argue whether the notion of sinless conception is silly or whether it is possible to raise from the grave. These are trivial matters most likely invented or blown out of proportion while re-telling the tales. One can argue about the fallibility and shortcomings of the Church, any organisation manned by humans is fallible and imperfect even though many claim otherwise. However, few points will remain:

1. the existence of a supreme deity has not been proven nor dis-proven. many tried, nobody succeeded.
2. i do not believe that you or anyone else have enough evidence to come to a definite conclusion in relation to sources / mechanisms of human spirituality and matters of after-life. you have beliefs in this respect which are equal to other beliefs in relation to availability of scientific proof.
3. there is nothing wrong with Christian morals preached today. There is ample evidence that destruction of many traditional values is hurting the society. Many values are being adhered to by most.


Mind you, I am a rational guy, Christian by tradition but not by practice (except in certain family traditions and morals). I believe my assessment is rational and hard to flaw.

shiva

Having been in that exact situation I can categorically say no.

At no point did god come into it.

I hoped that the doctors had paid attention at university, I hoped they hadn't stopped learning once they started their professional careers, I spent hours remembering all the science I had ever learnt and spent hours learning more but at no point did I ever consider prayer as a valid or even slightly sensible option.

God doesn't save people, solid science, rigorous thought and mans endless curiosity saves people. To suggest otherwise is ignorant at best and positively murderous at its worst.

The number of devoutely religious people who care for their sick children at home with the power of prayer alone is thankfully negligible.

It's no accident that faith in a curiously absent deity evaporates rapidly when lives are at imminent risk and the devout suddenly develop a curious and new faith in the powers of logic and reason

Meow

No. I'd ask for a doctor who could actually do something.

Meow

If certain behaviours are deemed Christian by believers that is incidental to why many atheists behave that way.

Until you can prove the existence of a deity, it does not exist. Ditto the Loch Ness Monster.

britexpat76

We also wear seatbelts as the Allah occupant protection system is pretty shit.