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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:28 pm   #31
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Who knows what it is? You'd need a trial for that. If the industry is known for this kind of behaviour, people in it are to some extent complicit. Like the actress who complained she felt sexually obligated because he was paying for her nanny, well, hello, there are other options. It's more of a grey area than you make out.
The fact that you think this shows how out of touch and misogynistic you are - do you have women in your life, and if you have daughters, I feel for them.

Also, if you had read (as you have but failed to comprehend), the power of Weinstein includes retribution, destroying peoples' careers/reputations, physical power, as well as being highly influential and predatory.

Complicit? YOU also exist in this "society" - Hollywood is a microcosm. It is men and people like YOU who make it harder for people like the interviewed to break free from those issues.

Anyway, why am I even talking to you? You've just demonstrated you have a distinct case of head over heart, and a distinct lack of empathy and understanding of womens' feelings or circumstances.

YOU are a part of the complicitness in society that allows for issues like this.

If you were Ben Affleck, I can imagine your reaction would have been "So what? It happens in this town! Get over it"
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:30 pm   #32
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
I don't know how you can argue this. A man in a position of power - who effectively, in this case, holds a veto over a woman's career - is obligated not to abuse that power for his own sexual gratification. Even if there may have been occasions when that abuse of power did not constitute a crime by the strict letter of the law, you seem to be saying that "they all do that" is a reasonable excuse for inexcusable behaviour.

What other options, pray tell, were available to the actress you mention? Should she have sacked her nanny? Should she have turned down a role? Should she have wrecked her career? Should she have given up in disgust and waited tables and lived off the tips for the rest of her life? That's what you seem to be advocating - that the little woman should just curl up and do whatever she's told to by the big swinging dick.

Even if what Weinstein did did not always cross the line into illegality, I hope there will now be sufficient evidence to convict him based on the times that it did.
That is exactly what men like Weinstein rely on - and were banking on.

Not to mention he widely controlled many journalists, in addition to being clearly vindictive and influential in the industry.

Thanks Oakvillian, for your perspectives.

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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:33 pm   #33
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Virtually every sensible jurisdiction in the world relies upon, "Innocent until proven guilty." which, I believe, is sensible. If it wasn't, you would be guilty simply because someone accuses you. That should frighten you.

Whether you like it or not, OJ was not guilty.
I'm respectful of "innocent until proven guilty". I'm also respectful of this scenario.

I'm also cognizant of the dozens of credible accounts coming forward, and we should recognize here that this is not a single accuser. This includes women like Angelina Jolie, Gwyneth Paltrow, recorded voice footage from a NY SVU crime unit sting operation on Harvey, and many many others.

Women have a lot to lose by "coming out" - most aptly demonstrated by responses (mainly male as we can see) from the likes of Shard and Jings (??), who discredit/belittle/play down actual sexual assault and coercion. There is a lot of shame and embarrassment in these scenarios and that is what small men like this prey on.

The other factor is his legal team and considerable wealth was very hard to go up against - and his non-disclosure agreements were water tight.

BTW, since you mention it, OJ was found not guilty in a court of law. As a lawyer you should recognize the gross fallibility of that context - he may have been freed in the legal system for the murder of his ex-wife and friend, but he has more things coming than that. Incidentally, he wrote a book about that - i.e. how he would have killed them "if he had done it". I believe Rupert Murdoch was going to publish it but withdrew it after public criticism.

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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:33 pm   #34
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Did you even read the reports, or are you just a sex assault defender? Every OJ has his lawyer I guess. Bizarre.
Out of order, sunshine. Nowhere I have I defended sexual assault.

This is very different to cases like Jimmy Savile, where his victims were universally incapable of giving consent, they were children.

People like Weinstein are nasty and manipulative, but being nasty and manipulative isn't a crime... just ask any lawyer. (Sorry AC ) No doubt Weinstein is a loathsome creep, but he wouldn't have got away with it for so long if there weren't some element of co-dependence here. Weinstein was able to manipulate girls precisely because he WAS able to "help" some of them in some ways that they thought they wanted at the time.

I've never had to give a blowjob to get hired, thankfully. But I find it hard to believe that most of those girls didn't understand that they actually, really had a choice.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:39 pm   #35
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Out of order, sunshine. Nowhere I have I defended sexual assault.

This is very different to cases like Jimmy Savile, where his victims were universally incapable of giving consent, they were children.

People like Weinstein are nasty and manipulative, but being nasty and manipulative isn't a crime... just ask any lawyer. (Sorry AC ) No doubt Weinstein is a loathsome creep, but he wouldn't have got away with it for so long if there weren't some element of co-dependence here. Weinstein was able to manipulate girls precisely because he WAS able to "help" some of them in some ways that they thought they wanted at the time.

I've never had to give a blowjob to get hired, thankfully. But I find it hard to believe that most of those girls didn't understand that they actually, really had a choice.
OK sorry if I mischaracterized your post, Jing

Read the New Yorker article - it becomes clearer IMO.
If you still disagree then, then we have a problem.

Incidentally, I think that what is lacking from this particular perspective (IMO) is that you don't get a sense of the vulnerability/fear/shame of these women.

In small companies even, I've seen assault and what happens when the HR system is not helpful and how an assault victim is victimized/small/scared.

People don't always have the context and vantage point of someone on the outside, particularly younger women. This is the bulk of his prey it seems.

FWIW.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:40 pm   #36
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

Basically, there are thousands of actors looking for every part that's available, so the producers have a huge amount of power in choosing who gets to become a star. When I worked in movies in the UK, there was a pretty widespread opinion that most men who went into producing did it so they could shag a better class of women/men/goats than they were used to.

All that power goes to some people's heads.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:46 pm   #37
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by jerryhung View Post
most aptly demonstrated by responses (mainly male as we can see) from the likes of Shard and Jings (??), who discredit/belittle/play down actual sexual assault and coercion. There is a lot of shame and embarrassment in these scenarios and that is what small men like this prey on.
Again, I am not discrediting/belittling or playing down 'sexual assault'.

Interestingly, why is it only when successful actors like Angelina Jolie speak out that it gets taken seriously? Why do we give more credence to people in positions of strength? That is precisely why Weinstein and his ilk get away with despicable (perhaps criminal, I don't know yet) behaviour, because we as a society are generally a bit starstruck.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:50 pm   #38
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Interestingly, why is it only when successful actors like Angelina Jolie speak out that it gets taken seriously? Why do we give more credence to people in positions of strength?
Yes. There are plenty of--maybe true, maybe not--stories of less-well-known actors having breakdowns or killing themselves because of what they had to do to get their parts. But few people cared about them.

Heck, it's been happening for decades: look at the stories about The Wizard Of Oz, for example. Or the stories about Shirley Temple, who fortunately had a mother who looked after her, rather than one who told her to do whatever it took to get the part.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:53 pm   #39
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by Oakvillian View Post
I don't know how you can argue this. A man in a position of power - who effectively, in this case, holds a veto over a woman's career - is obligated not to abuse that power for his own sexual gratification. Even if there may have been occasions when that abuse of power did not constitute a crime by the strict letter of the law, you seem to be saying that "they all do that" is a reasonable excuse for inexcusable behaviour.

What other options, pray tell, were available to the actress you mention? Should she have sacked her nanny? Should she have turned down a role? Should she have wrecked her career? Should she have given up in disgust and waited tables and lived off the tips for the rest of her life? That's what you seem to be advocating - that the little woman should just curl up and do whatever she's told to by the big swinging dick.

Even if what Weinstein did did not always cross the line into illegality, I hope there will now be sufficient evidence to convict him based on the times that it did.

I'm not saying they all do that, it's ok. I'm saying there are risks in every field and individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions. Obviously, that doesn't extend to being physically attacked, but where no crime has taken place, there are arguments that can be made on consent.

Yes, absolutely, actress should have quit and gone to the police. Financial loss is part of life. If more women had done that, the situation would not have endured quite so long. Fortunately, some are starting to do that now.

I also hope that he will be prosecuted and punished if guilty. Just because I can take a detached view of matters does not mean I condone them.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 7:56 pm   #40
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/cara-delevingne-harvey-weinstein-sexual-harassment-1202587272/

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/harvey-weinstein-what-you-need-to-know-w508162
Two more links with content that should help some understand why people are coerced into sexual acts
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 8:02 pm   #41
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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Originally Posted by jerryhung View Post
I'm respectful of "innocent until proven guilty". I'm also respectful of this scenario.

I'm also cognizant of the dozens of credible accounts coming forward, and we should recognize here that this is not a single accuser. This includes women like Angelina Jolie, Gwyneth Paltrow, recorded voice footage from a NY SVU crime unit sting operation on Harvey, and many many others.

Women have a lot to lose by "coming out" - most aptly demonstrated by responses (mainly male as we can see) from the likes of Shard and Jings (??), who discredit/belittle/play down actual sexual assault and coercion. There is a lot of shame and embarrassment in these scenarios and that is what small men like this prey on.

The other factor is his legal team and considerable wealth was very hard to go up against - and his non-disclosure agreements were water tight.

BTW, since you mention it, OJ was found not guilty in a court of law. As a lawyer you should recognize the gross fallibility of that context - he may have been freed in the legal system for the murder of his ex-wife and friend, but he has more things coming than that. Incidentally, he wrote a book about that - i.e. how he would have killed them "if he had done it". I believe Rupert Murdoch was going to publish it but withdrew it after public criticism.
In a criminal case the assailants' legal team is the State. NDA will not protect him in a criminal trial.

If you don't like how the criminal legal system works, what you do propose as an alternative, guilt by Twitter?

The issue I have with "dozens of credible accounts" is that that is what the media says until the matter comes to trial. When the accounts are then demonstrated to be nothing like as clear cut as they had reported, the journalists then turn upon the lawyers and blame them for "twisting" things.

If he did this, I have no issue with him receiving exactly what he deserves. Unlike some, I will leave it for others to determine his guilt. Those that have read all the evidence, listened to the witnesses and who have found the facts.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 8:09 pm   #42
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

I've read a few things about this, but haven't seen anything mentioning why it's all suddenly coming up right now.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 8:14 pm   #43
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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I've read a few things about this, but haven't seen anything mentioning why it's all suddenly coming up right now.
The SJWs seem to have turned against Hollywood in the last year or so. It may just be part of that campaign.

Which isn't a bad thing: if one tenth of the stories I've heard are true, it's a cesspit of debauchery and abuse.
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Old Oct 11th 2017, 8:16 pm   #44
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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I've read a few things about this, but haven't seen anything mentioning why it's all suddenly coming up right now.
I think the NYT finally had the 'ahem' to publish allegations. C4 News just had an ex-NYT journo on who had a similar scoop 13 years ago, but said that the article was buried. Such was the power Weinstein had. Also, the recent Fox News sexual assault firings have empowered some of Weinstein's victims to come forward.
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Old Oct 12th 2017, 5:36 pm   #45
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Default Re: Harvey Weinstein

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I've read a few things about this, but haven't seen anything mentioning why it's all suddenly coming up right now.
Try this from Popbitch
http://popbitch.com/2017/10/inches-for-inches/
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