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Old Feb 2nd 2018, 11:46 am   #1171
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Not bad, but none the wiser.

I see there's a 1985 film by the same name. Can't believe I was unaware of that film given my vintage (roughly the same as the then hot chick that appeared in the film). How did I miss that?! Might have to watch it someday, although probably a bit creepy for my tastes.
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Old Feb 3rd 2018, 2:41 am   #1172
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Not bad, but none the wiser.

I see there's a 1985 film by the same name. Can't believe I was unaware of that film given my vintage (roughly the same as the then hot chick that appeared in the film). How did I miss that?! Might have to watch it someday, although probably a bit creepy for my tastes.
Not quite, I meant to find an explanation for what life is in everything that we know of that is alive.

I don't think science has come up with a theory for defining exactly what life is yet.... Will AI? Is AI capable at is infinite best of becoming alive? It may develop self-awareness at some distant point, but is that life?


Nothing to do with religion or spirituality .... Just Lifeforce.
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Old Feb 3rd 2018, 8:09 am   #1173
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Default Re: The world of automation

I agree with above the dangers inherent that we loose our humanity. In the sense of what it is to be human. Will people even care?
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Old Feb 13th 2018, 10:41 pm   #1174
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Default Re: The world of automation

Found this interesting plot of the level of manufacturing automation in different countries :



Australia can be seen to be (just) above the average line (and just above the UK) but well, well, behind on the leaders. Is that resistance to automation, or just lack of investment? Either way, so much for the hubris of 'the clever country', and if this tracks with other forms of automation Australia is well behind in being able to be competitive with SE Asian neighbours, or europe.
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Old Feb 13th 2018, 11:43 pm   #1175
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Found this interesting plot of the level of manufacturing automation in different countries :

https://ifr.org/img/uploads/Robot_de...try_page_1.jpg

Australia can be seen to be (just) above the average line (and just above the UK) but well, well, behind on the leaders. Is that resistance to automation, or just lack of investment? Either way, so much for the hubris of 'the clever country', and if this tracks with other forms of automation Australia is well behind in being able to be competitive with SE Asian neighbours, or europe.
Interesting. Seems like there's automation opportunity here. Might be time to investigate.

Interesting to see the big automation giants like South Korea and Germany have very low unemployment rates too.
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Old Feb 14th 2018, 4:58 am   #1176
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Interesting. Seems like there's automation opportunity here. Might be time to investigate.

Interesting to see the big automation giants like South Korea and Germany have very low unemployment rates too.
Which came first, the automation because of a low unemployment rate; or a low unemployment rate because the economy was doing well through automation investment?

Seems to me there is a correlation, at least for manufacturing automation - so maybe Australia should push to have more?

It feels like the answer is the countries with sensible management build global class companies which both improves the economy at home, and invest in automation to keep that manufacture at home (rather than it drift off to cheap locations). If you could offset some tax against automation investment in country, then everyone is happy with the result.

Almost sounds like an election policy ...
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Old Feb 14th 2018, 9:17 am   #1177
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Which came first, the automation because of a low unemployment rate; or a low unemployment rate because the economy was doing well through automation investment?

Seems to me there is a correlation, at least for manufacturing automation - so maybe Australia should push to have more?

It feels like the answer is the countries with sensible management build global class companies which both improves the economy at home, and invest in automation to keep that manufacture at home (rather than it drift off to cheap locations). If you could offset some tax against automation investment in country, then everyone is happy with the result.

Almost sounds like an election policy ...
Well that's the point isn't it. People are too worried about automation taking jobs - instead manufacturing died a death in Australia anyway. If you keep it going by investing in more profitable ways using tech, there's only ever an upside.

Automation creates jobs.
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Old Feb 14th 2018, 12:46 pm   #1178
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Default Re: The world of automation

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryP View Post
Found this interesting plot of the level of manufacturing automation in different countries :

https://ifr.org/img/uploads/Robot_de...try_page_1.jpg

Australia can be seen to be (just) above the average line (and just above the UK) but well, well, behind on the leaders. Is that resistance to automation, or just lack of investment? Either way, so much for the hubris of 'the clever country', and if this tracks with other forms of automation Australia is well behind in being able to be competitive with SE Asian neighbours, or europe.
The automation density is probably a reflection of the kind of manufacturing being done in each of these countries. Manufacturing heavy industry, cars, electronics can make use of more robots than small scale manufacturing or garment manufacturing. Highly dispersed countries like Australia and and Canada will always be at a relative disadvantage of the Korea, Germany and Japan's of this world. Supply chain geography always matters.
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 12:21 am   #1179
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Default Re: The world of automation

All well and good. But without retraining there will be a lot of pain in the transitionary process in which large segments of the population as stands will be unlikely to recover.


The reason being the cost of retraining for one thing, with little government involvement that I detect to date, likely to enable a soft landing.


Weren't we promised big things during the last big change during the eighties, which saw massive change in the industrial environment in the developed world? A lot of areas never recovered and government assistance was minimal at best.


I have seen Germany mentioned. A very different system. Perhaps look at the educational set up there first before comparing with countries like Australia.
Even there, problems have indeed risen, but a decent welfare system helps to keep things together. A study of the displacement and anger, still simmering in the old DDR, (East Germany) is interesting in how populations adapt to change. One clue, it doesn't come cheap.
Of course, Germany a far richer country, could afford to throw serious money at minimising the problem. Just how would Australia manage any rapid change? I suspect for society harmony it will in slow implementation. '
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 12:31 am   #1180
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Default Re: The world of automation

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All well and good. But without retraining there will be a lot of pain in the transitionary process in which large segments of the population as stands will be unlikely to recover.


The reason being the cost of retraining for one thing, with little government involvement that I detect to date, likely to enable a soft landing.


Weren't we promised big things during the last big change during the eighties, which saw massive change in the industrial environment in the developed world? A lot of areas never recovered and government assistance was minimal at best.


I have seen Germany mentioned. A very different system. Perhaps look at the educational set up there first before comparing with countries like Australia.
Even there, problems have indeed risen, but a decent welfare system helps to keep things together. A study of the displacement and anger, still simmering in the old DDR, (East Germany) is interesting in how populations adapt to change. One clue, it doesn't come cheap.
Of course, Germany a far richer country, could afford to throw serious money at minimising the problem. Just how would Australia manage any rapid change? I suspect for society harmony it will in slow implementation. '
The bigger problem, discussed upthread, is that with the kind of automation coming, there won't be sufficient low-mid skill jobs to retrain everyone for...
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 2:30 am   #1181
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Default Re: The world of automation

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The bigger problem, discussed upthread, is that with the kind of automation coming, there won't be sufficient low-mid skill jobs to retrain everyone for...
Worse. The phrase 'retrain' usually means a job that you can teach someone who's just been made redundant in less than 12 weeks. However, these are just the jobs that can often also be automated - what the automation has to 'learn' is limited. So there won't BE any new jobs like that - they will go directly to automated.

Supposed you have a truck driver that gets automated out of a job. What are you going to retrain them for that won't go the same way almost immediately? You aren't going to turn them into app developers, both because of aptitude and because you are talking multiple year courses.

Nobody seems to be seriously looking at this.
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 4:57 am   #1182
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Worse. The phrase 'retrain' usually means a job that you can teach someone who's just been made redundant in less than 12 weeks. However, these are just the jobs that can often also be automated - what the automation has to 'learn' is limited. So there won't BE any new jobs like that - they will go directly to automated.

Supposed you have a truck driver that gets automated out of a job. What are you going to retrain them for that won't go the same way almost immediately? You aren't going to turn them into app developers, both because of aptitude and because you are talking multiple year courses.

Nobody seems to be seriously looking at this.
Lucky for the truck driver automation isn't going to hit him or the trucking industry in a 12 week period.
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 8:38 am   #1183
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Default Re: The world of automation

The cost to society will be formable. The trials and tribulations of managing the upheaval will indeed be formable. Yet another reason Australia has little need to be running a record immigration program.


We have a clueless government, not only disregarding a per cent of the population, but totally unprepared for the changes ahead.


I agree training will be impossible for many. Not a case of lazy, Boez, (as you inferred) but train in what exactly. How to fund a suitable training and many over fifty will likely never work again anyway. In some cases lower in age.


We have an income support system that cannot support claimants longer term, to which even The Chamber Of Commerce, admits to be too low ......


For the sake of social harmony the introduction may be stilted and phrased in but the result is likely to remain the same.
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 10:50 am   #1184
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Yet another reason Australia has little need to be running a record immigration program.
Actually I think Australia may well need a bigger immigration program, but with a concentration on the really highly skilled. If half the population is unemployable, then you are going to need the earnings from those that are to keep things running. And that means high tech creative business, and high tech creative people to make it work. Using nice environment to entice them is a good move.

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I agree training will be impossible for many. Not a case of lazy, Boez, (as you inferred) but train in what exactly. How to fund a suitable training and many over fifty will likely never work again anyway. In some cases lower in age.
I get the feeling that it will hit particular job classes, but also it will hit the young. Who is going to pay to train the young into a creative high tech job when they can recruit from those who are already there?

I get the feeling youth unemployment will go crazy.
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Old Feb 15th 2018, 11:35 pm   #1185
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Default Re: The world of automation

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Actually I think Australia may well need a bigger immigration program, but with a concentration on the really highly skilled. If half the population is unemployable, then you are going to need the earnings from those that are to keep things running. And that means high tech creative business, and high tech creative people to make it work. Using nice environment to entice them is a good move.



I get the feeling that it will hit particular job classes, but also it will hit the young. Who is going to pay to train the young into a creative high tech job when they can recruit from those who are already there?

I get the feeling youth unemployment will go crazy.
Do you really think mass immigration is going to be of the quality mentioned? Highly doubtful. You do release what the situation has been to date? Nobody is against sustainable quality migration is what perhaps you mean, to which I agree.


As we can agree the impact will be severe, just how severe depends on factors like speed of implementation for example. What will be on offer in the nature of retraining. Looking after those unable to reconnect with the 'brave new world' , all things that were not handled especially well during the last change that impacted blue collar workers rather severely, as I've already mentioned.


As you admit, th
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