the troubadour

I do not know how much you know about European cities but for one i reinstate London is a far more culturally diverse city than Sydney period.
Just to inform you i do not think that all Asians in Sydney are Chinese that was a completly daft comment.What i stated was that Sydney has more people of ETHNIC Chinese origin than does London(114,040 born in China in NSW and most live in the capital)Yes most do speak Mandarin.Hong Kong Chinese (38,350)and yes most of these speak Cantonese then the Overseas Chinese component Indonesia(21,890 perhaps a little over half being Chinese) but yes they speak Bahasa Indonesia,Sinapore,(around 10,000 in Sydney again mostly Chinese,and Malaysians(24,000)
And yes i am fully aware of the racial compostion of Malaysia and Singapore being two of the most rascially diverse countries in the world.
But owing to the politics of Malaysia in the past many Chinese from there came to Australia and stayed ...so what i am getting at is i think it safe to say most (not all) immigrants from Malaysia,Singapore,Indonesia.Taiwan.Hong Kong and of course the mother land China(which has been in the top three countries for sending immigrants.)have an ethic Chinese back ground
Even the Vietnam community(some 64,000 in Sydney)has a big number of ethnic chinese amoung their ranks.
Yes Australia has a lot more Vietnamese than any European nation with the exception possibly being France which has similar in number but then OZ has a far smaller population And yes Philippinos(57.000in Sydney again more but not so many more than London)
Koreans at 33,000 is another developing community as are the Indians at 58,000 up 54% in five years.
I stated that Australia is changing rapidly but does not have the diversity of London at this point of time as does London.I neither state it better nor worse for not having so or vice versa
All the countries you mention are Asian ,as i said before i am refering to diversity(Africa,Latin America,Europe,) and as for languages in my area of London being W2 i could hear as many different tongues spoken as English Chinese Arabic Russian French German Turkish Farsi the list goes on and on,In London there are numerous communities that do not or barely exit here
in Australia.
They have massive populations from Nigeria,Congo,Jamaica,Trinidad,Iran, Somalia Bangla Desh,Poland.Serbia,Ireland Brazil,some are countries that barely regester in Sydney.
It would actually appear more racist to me how you dismiss the Islamic population in Europe (London,i speak mainly about)which in itself is as almost diverse as the Sydney Asian community in colour and culture coming from Bosnia,Kosovo,Albania,Algeria,Morocco,Pakistan.Ind ia,Sudan ,Ethiopa,Iran,Iraq,The Indian community is totally diverse in language religion cultureas well.

the troubadour

Yes in fact France has a very large Vietnamese population as stated in letter just posted(as well as more Lao and Cambodians)owing of course to all three countries being part of French Indo China)
Paris has a very large China Town ..Place de Italie 13a....
France has a large African population from Mali,Niger,Cote d Ivore ,Senegal,Cameroon...then the French autre mer....overseas territories of Guadeloppe and Martinique
France has over threemillion muslims Morocco,Algeria,Tunisia.Chad,etc
France has the largest Jewish population outside of Israel and USA(UK next)
No way is the Asian population 12%+ Total non white % under 10.
Yes Melbourne does have a large ethnic Greek population but only 54,000 Greek born and declining rapidly.
In fact most Europeans populations are declining in Austrlia..Spain down2.7%
Malta down 7% Portugal down 1.6%Germany down 1.6% Austria down 6.7%
Netherlands down 5.2% Poland down !)%
European populations are not very substantial in Australia and becoming less so by the day
Average age for all european nationalities very high.Even UK average age is 53.7 Malta 60 years Greece 63.4 years
Europe with the union is very mixed between nations these days 70,000 French live and work in London alone.
By and large Australia is not as diverse and far more variety of races live in London..

googy

Australia is multicultural - has been for donkeys, always will be.

Australia's non white population is about 8%.

Including in this is aboriginal of about 2%

One thing to remember when quoting Asian populations is to remember a significant number of these include temporary residents (such as international students). In Australia, there are about 300,000 international students, the majority from Asia.

Even though the majority of these students go home, as they are in Australia when the census is done, they are included in the population demographics.

In terms of Korean population like someone mentioned, there hasn't been an huge increase in the number of permanent migrants. However, the reason why the population has gone up is because there is an "explosion" in the number of temporary residents (12 mth/2 yr backpacker visas, international student visa and tourist visas -- Koreans can now get an ETA)

With Australia having a large amount of temporary residents coming and going all the time - it can often distort the results of what an 'Australian resident' is.

Most of the surveys only show who is here - not what visa they are on or what citizenship they have.

the troubadour

Yes you are right regarding a very big number of international students in mosty Australian cities but i think you will find in the census stats they are counted differently and not included in the permanent immigrant section as are overseas tourists in the country on census night .

googy

When my flatmate was living with me, who was an international student, no question on the census form asked his visa status.

I encourage you to visit this site:
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D33...9!OpenDocument

"On Tuesday 8 August, the Australian Census will take place. It is often thought that only Australian residents are included in the Census count. This is not so. International students and visitors are all part of the Australian Census count.

In fact every person who is in the country on that night should be included in the Census, wherever they are staying.
Australia is counting on all international students to participate in the Census.
"

the troubadour

Every year Dima issues material on people entering and leaving the country and info is under various sections.For example; Permanent Arrivals, Permanent Departures,Short Term Arrivals, Students,Humanitarian Entrants(Refugees)This info is collected at arrival and departure points and is very clear and easy to understand.
Census counts the overall number of people in the country on the nominated night that is very right.
Yearly figures give a fairly accurate idea of pop numbers.
Koreans actually are one of the faster growing communities in OZ up 35.8% in five years.

googy

Yes, DIAC does publish permanent arrivals and departures each year. These are population flows.

In terms of population stocks, they are issued by ABS. Population stocks generally say how many people of Chinese descent are in Australia as of a certain date. These are questions in the census.

DIAC data is not that good for some countries like Greece and Italy as most of the migrants from these countries came in the 1960s. If you looked at DIAC data, it wouldn't show that much. This is why you need to look at ABS data as it shows stocks (how many are in Australia as of that date).

DIAC does not ask "race" questions like ABS do. e.g. DIAC might say we had xxx number of permanent arrivals in Australia from Singapore. DIAC don't ask whether these people are of Indian descent or European descent. In the ABS census, a question asks the ethnic descent of each person (some question the validity of this though as it has Australian as a race and most people seem to select it)

USA99

I’m a professor in the USA specializing in international demographics and I came across your posts today by chance whilst searching the web.

In response to the point raised by “the troubadour” that France and the UK are far more “multicultural” than Australia – this is simply not the case.

A country’s ethnic diversity is measured by the Diversity Index. The diversity index, or the ratio between the number of ethnicities present in a particular country and the population of a country. The index is updated every 4 years and the rankings below are for 2006.

Rankings for top 3 most ethnically diverse countries are:

1. Canada
2. USA
3. Australia

France only just makes it into the top 20 most ethnic diverse countries ranked at 19.

The UK does not fall within the top 50 most ethnically diverse countries and hence is not classed as a country with great ethnic diversity.

For sure, the UK has large numbers of migrants, however they are large numbers from a relatively small number of countries eg India and Pakistan for example. Hence, in the UK there is not the relative large diversity found in the top ranking countries.

Also, UK has little ethnic diversity outside of the major cities such as London, it is relatively concentrated.

This is similarly the case the other EU countries (ex France) that have large numbers of migrants... a lot of people come from a relatively small number of countries.

You will notice that the countries that are regarded as the most ethnically diverse all have one thing in common – they are all “new countries” ie they were countries with small indigenous populations that have grown out of migration. France, the UK and other EU countries have had large migration patterns in recent times for sure, however as a ratio to their own native population they still remain relatively small.

There is also big difference between the diversity index score of the top 5 countries and those at the bottom of the top 20. For example Australia has a diversity index score of 282 whilst France has only a diversity score of 71. So Australia is a vastly more ethnically diverse country than France.

So to answer to original point raised yes Australia has significantly far greater ethnic diversity than France or the UK.

Hope this clears it all up for you.

the troubadour

Sorry to come back on this subject again as it seems to
getting a little to involved in detail figures i initially gave was only to justify my point regarding ethnic chinese in O,but so be it.
You say race questions are not asked then that being the case how am i able to access for example,take Indonesia,
50,970 in Australia up18.1% on 01,average age 32.2,
66.6% speak Bahasa at home 6.4% a Chinese language.
Ethnicity 23,600 Chinese 23,050 Indonesian 4,180 Dutch sorry but that looks very much like ethnic stats to me.
Can provide for other countries as well in Asia.
Yes most migrants to Australia from Greece came a long time ago but i would have thought the figures clear enough,
109,980 Greek born people here in 06 down 5.6% on 01
average age 63.4......91.1% arrived prior to 96
Other country you mention Italy down 9% on 01 stats to 199,120 average age 65.7.......91.6% here prior to 96 seems clear enough to me.......if i am missing your point please do tell me what i am not getting.
For those born here i am fairly positive that a question asks ethnic background can be found in the census

Syedney

Ah well...if uk doesn't make the top 50 of most diverse countries and 99% of Brits swear that it is, we blame the media and specially the Daily Mail (which should be renamed to the Pravda, the truth, which brain washed the Russians!!).

USA99 you've enlightened us, stopped a certain bickering and also, to boot, destroyed a whole generation of Brits argument....Hmmm, drafts anyone?

googy

Yes, you are correct. As per my discussion above, yes, the census DOES ask this question. The census is done by the ABS, NOT DIAC.

The census askes the "ethnicity" question for all in Australia on that day - the question is independent of whether you are born in Australia i.e. you are asked that question whether you were born here, are an international student here or whether you are an illegal immigrant here. (The census doesn't ask questions on visa status directly)

ABCDiamond

I am not sure how accurate that is.

The 2006 Census shows the Top 15 ancestries of Australia as:
37.1% Australian
31.6% English
9.1% Irish
7.6% Scottish
4.3% Italian
4.1% German
3.4% Chinese
1.8% Greek
1.6% Dutch
1.2% Indian
0.9% Lebanese
0.9% Vietnamese
0.8% Polish
0.8% New Zealander
0.8% Filipino

106.0% Total

These total as groups:
48.3% British
12.6% European
37.9% Aust/NZ
0.9% Middle East
1.2% India
5.1% Asian


Now, as the top 15 ancestries total 106% of the population, and the census says there are more than 250 different ancestries.....
as I said I am not sure how accurate that is


The section on "Language other than English spoken at home" was interesting, with Sydney being 29.3%
Brisbane 10.7% and
Hobart 5.1%


Yes, I know this disagrees with another page on the ABS website

googy

In terms of exclusing overseas visitors, some data sheets exclude this.

Some data sets they use a rule called 12/16 rule. Essentially it means that "travellers must have been resident in Australia for a total period of 12 months or more, during the 16 month follow-up period to be included in he estimated resident population".

In these rules, generally, tourists are excluded. International students and backpackers (depending on their time in Australia) are included here.

the troubadour

Sorry i do not dispute what you write but the original point that i put over was not that the nations of Great Britain nor France being more multi cultural than Australia but that the city of London being more diverse than Sydney.
I lived twenty one years in London and i do admit i have not been to Sydney in four years but then one barely saw a black face in the street Indians(Sri Lankans,Pakistaniis)had only become a visible minority in fairly recent times{i was for the first time in Sydney in 1988 and can remember thinking no black and few West Asian faces on the street at all}
So how those stats you mention measure racial diversity i would like to know.I observe on the street level as well as consult immigration figures{London gives a borough by borough composition of ethnicity figures}
I repeat refer to the city of London Diversity we lived and breathed it every day.
In Sydney, where are the Jamaicans Trinidadians,Guyanese,Polish,Nigerians Somalis Bangla Deshis,v i could go on but i think the subject has been pretty much covered.
Just to add what you state regarding only a few gruops ie Indians and Pakastanis is an apt describtion in a lot of areas outside London ie Yorkshire etc and yes spent some time in Norfolk where a black or Asisn face could be seen rarely this is not in dispute but again it is London i refer to.
RE Paris i do not say there is more immigrants but please look at the diversity of that city to Sydney.

ABCDiamond

When you compare the City of London to Sydney, my recollection is that the City of London is a very small area, with a population of under 10,000.
Do you compare to a similar sized central area in Sydney, or are you comparing Greater London to Greater Sydney ?