COB76

Hi,

So I've read some posts about UK driving licences but not sure on forum policy about thread jacking. Most recent and closest to my question is http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=781085 so if I should add to that thread please let me know.

Living in Grand Forks, ND (don't ask).
Went to the DMV to do the written test and they tried to keep my UK licence so I cancelled the test, asked for my licence back and left.

The lady at the DMV said they have to keep out of state licences which is fine, but this is a foreign licence and as far as I was aware, a document they are not allowed to take from me.

I'm not a permanent resident yet so I'm in no hurry.

I am also aware that if I am not a UK resident then my UK licence is either invalid / not renewable (not due for a few more years).

However...

I intend to return to the UK a lot once my residency comes through. I have a UK address and a UK business so I'm confused as to what defines a non-resident regarding validity of a driving licence.

But that aside, can anyone confirm if they are allowed to withhold my UK licence?

Many thanks,

Noorah101

Be very careful not to abandon your US PR status while you are "in the UK a lot". Since you will still have a UK address and a UK business (that I assume you'll be working at while there), it could be seen that you have not clearly left the UK to live permanently in the USA. Make sure you have STRONG ties to the USA during your short visits back to the UK.

You are correct, DMV is not supposed to take away your UK license. Don't bring it with you to your next appointment, and ask to speak to a supervisor if they continue to ask you to surrender your UK license.

Rene

Jerseygirl

Tell the DMV the driving licence belongs to The Crown and only her Majesty or her representatives can take it away from you.

Even if you do hand it over...once you become a UK resident again you can apply for a replacement. Take a photocopy of it and/or make a note of the number.

COB76

Hi Noorah,

Thanks for your reply and it confirms what I suspected. I'll see if I can get hold of a supervisor to get this resolved.

Regarding travelling to and from the UK, I guess I'll be treading a fine line but I don't want to lose my UK residency. My wife and I may (fingers crossed) move to the UK in the next 10 years but apart from that I just would prefer not to let go.

Thanks again.

COB76

I certainly will. I should have stood my ground this morning but I was so annoyed I thought it best that I just leave before I swore too much more at them. As Norrah says, I'll see if I can speak to a supervisor before going down there again.

I'm determined not to. I thought about just handing it in and then simply re-applying for a new one (as I'm not a US permanent resident I'll be allowed) or else just telling them I sent it back. Will probably have to get my wife to drive me there if I do that though...

Noorah101

So you're not a UKC, then.

Just be prepared to lose your US PR status if you tread the fine line too close to the wrong direction.

Rene

COB76

Yes I am a UKC. Did you mean USC? If so then no I'm not (I'm a UKC) and have no intention of ever being a USC. I'm in the US with my USC wife. Sorry, looking back I did use the word "residency" which may imply otherwise. What I meant was residency as far as licencing is concerned.

Sound advise for sure. I have a fantastic immigration lawyer and will try to ensure I don't slip the wrong way. But I intend to spend as much time in the UK as I can. It will always be my home.

Noorah101

I guess I just don't truly understand your situation. You're a UKC, and will always be one (even if you become a USC, which you say you don't want to do...but you still won't lose your UK citizenship, even if you become a USC).

You do NOT have to spend as much time as possible in the UK to retain your UK citizenship. If the only thing you'll lose is a UK drivers license by spending too much time in the USA, I don't really see the harm in that? Surely when you visit the UK from time to time, you would have a way to be able to drive over there (the same as when a UKC visits the USA for a period of time, they also can drive in the USA without a US license).

It sounds as though you've immigrated to the USA and will soon become a US PR (which means the USA is your permanent home thereafter). But then it also sounds like you don't really WANT to immigrate to the USA.

Either way, sounds like you have a lawyer who can advise you on things. But if your only fear is losing a UK drivers license (and that's why you want to spend as much time in the UK as possible), I wouldn't put your US PR status at risk just for that. Just my layman's opinion.

You say you want to move back to the UK in about 10 years or so. Wouldn't it be nice if you could travel freely back and forth between the USA and UK? What if, after 10 years, you decide once again you want to live in the USA? You'd have to do the immigration process all over again. Or, if you want to live 6 months in the USA and 6 months in the UK? You wouldn't be able to do that unless you were a dual UK/US citizen.

Rene

holly_1948

You are confusing the officials at the DMV who do not know (nor can be expected to know) the niceties of the law.
I suspect (only suspect) that the ND law is the same as California - what they should do is (upon passing the road test) stamp your UK licence "Not valid in North Dakota" and return it to you. Pain in the arm, you don't want that if you can avoid it.

However, you would be crazy to rely on anyone's recollection of the fine point of the law, still less the knowledge of DMV workers.

The practical thing to do is to join the AAA soonest and then (as soon as your membership is a good week old to be certain it is firmly in place) contact the lawyer at the AAA, tell him what you are trying to achieve, and ask her or him to research you situation. Do not ask for, nor expect, an answer on the spot, rather ask that she or he researches and gets back to you citing the appropriate law.

The alternative is simply to say that you have no US license or Canada licence and get a learner's permit. In the old days you would simply let them take it and then (truthfully) tell the UK authorities that it was illegally taken from you while travelling. But these days with worldwide bogus terrorist paranoia that may be unsafe (even though legal).

COB76

Yes you are technically correct though one example of a negative is that if I am a USC they will no longer recognise the UK embassy to act on my behalf..

I know, it was more about wanting to spend time in the UK because that is my home, I am English and I love my country. My friends and family are there and as such I will want to spend as much time there as I can.

Again, it's not really just about my driving licence. I don't have to give it up and I'm not going to. Legally I don't believe I'm even allowed to hand it over to anyone in the U.S. as it doesn't belong to me and again, I'm not going to break the law of my home country to please the ridiculous whim of this one (at least this state). I'm actually aware of certain ADVANTAGES of driving in the UK on a US licence but still, I wish to keep it.

Given the choice (meaning not splitting up with my wife) then no, I would not immigrate to this country. At the moment I am doing what I have to in order to be with my wife until she is happier about moving to the UK.

Appreciated but see above.

I personally, and it may just be me feel that the negatives of becoming a USC (one of which is being a USC, no offence) outweigh the positives.

Anyhoo, I've just spoken to the DMV supervisor who confirms that whilst they recognise the UK law preventing me from handing over my UK licence, they have to abide by state law that says I must. So when I go down there again I will "no longer posses" my UK driving licence and will have to not drive anywhere until I get my full US licence.
F***ed up if you ask me.
Like I said, I could hand it in and simply re-apply for a replacement licence or I could visit the DMV every week (it's 5 minutes away) and ask for my licence back for a few days, because I'm good like that.
I'll add this to the HUGE LIST of reasons I despise this country.

COB76

Legally they are not allowed to deface my licence so I wouldn't allow them to stamp it neither.

This is what riled me the most. I knew I was right but when everyone at the DMV says the same thing (the wrong thing) I'm not left with much choice if I want a ND licence (I wouldn't bother except if I get my residency I'd have to, apparently).

I like the idea of the last suggestion, they need to learn and that may be an effective solution.
Now I'm in the mindset to just not bother until I legally have to have a state licence (after I get my PR status + however many days after that I can still drive on my UK licence). I only bothered to get it now as there's a lot of driving jobs locally and they require a state licence.

Jerseygirl

The rules and regs differ from state to state. NJ DMV asked me to hand over my DL...I refused. I took a multi question written test and got a NJ DL. They have no right to take your DL or stamp anything on it. On the other hand if that is the only way of obtaining a US DL...you may have to do as they wish. Obtaining a replacement UK DL is not a problem as long as one is a resident of the UK.

GeoffM

If somebody takes something that doesn't belong to them without permission, such as a UK license, isn't that theft? Pose that one to them!

I'd try a different DMV.

Jerseygirl

Good idea. We have had people post in the past who have had problems with the DMV...they went to another office and hey presto.

kimilseung

Legal on what basis? You are talking about America, which has nothing to do with UK law, is there an International treaty covering this?

You sound childish, looking for very small points to make in to mountains.
Can you site any instances of prosecution for handing over a drivers license, they are not even taking it from you they are asking you to hand it over.

Can you envisage an occasion when consular help will be required should you go for dual citizenship? If you can, your problems might be bigger than a minor quibble over a license and citizenship.

You say your family is in the UK. What about your wife, is she not the heart of your family now? What does she want, what does she say about all this?

It does not sound like you are even ready for a cross cultural relationship. Give some thought to what your relationship might need, and stop being so petty.