US Patriotism.
Jul 4th 2008, 11:04 am
#46
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,397
Re: US Patriotism.
[QUOTE=Lorna at Vicenza;6533038]
I wasnt talking about 16 years ago.
There are a very few restrictions on the placement of poles .. the issue is not needing permission to fly a flag. Given the pole meets all 'planning' rules and regulations you can fly the flag, if it doesn't you need to change position or height of the pole.
Even before the changes in Law it didnt mean you could not fly a flag at a height under anything requiring normal planning, for the most part it meant you couldn't just stick a pole up on any roof you wanted.
If I didnt make myself clear enough though, I apologise .. but I was actually referring to much more recent accusations (I've even seen it in this section of the forum) of people saying councils have banned them from flying flags for 'culturally sensitive' reasons and pointing out it's garbage.
if there were restrictions for flying a flag on public buildings what makes you think there were none for private residences ? Brits actually needed to obtain local planning permission to raise a flagpole (often very difficult if not nearly impossible to get).
There are a very few restrictions on the placement of poles .. the issue is not needing permission to fly a flag. Given the pole meets all 'planning' rules and regulations you can fly the flag, if it doesn't you need to change position or height of the pole.
Even before the changes in Law it didnt mean you could not fly a flag at a height under anything requiring normal planning, for the most part it meant you couldn't just stick a pole up on any roof you wanted.
If I didnt make myself clear enough though, I apologise .. but I was actually referring to much more recent accusations (I've even seen it in this section of the forum) of people saying councils have banned them from flying flags for 'culturally sensitive' reasons and pointing out it's garbage.
Jul 4th 2008, 12:22 pm
#47
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Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
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Re: US Patriotism.
One of the problems (especially for a Briton) with the concept of the "Patriot" in the United States goes right back to the founding of the country. A "Patriot" is someone who chose the winning side in the War of Independence (which was a cruel & bitter civil war with much terrorism, rape & pillage on both sides - like the events in Iraq currently, but without the suicide bombing.)
For instance, John Hancock and Geo. Washington are currently defined as "Patriots," but Thomas Hutchinson (Governor of Massachusetts,) was not a Patriot?
For instance, John Hancock and Geo. Washington are currently defined as "Patriots," but Thomas Hutchinson (Governor of Massachusetts,) was not a Patriot?
Jul 4th 2008, 12:29 pm
#48
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Re: US Patriotism.
One of the problems (especially for a Briton) with the concept of the "Patriot" in the United States goes right back to the founding of the country. A "Patriot" is someone who chose the winning side in the War of Independence (which was a cruel & bitter civil war with much terrorism, rape & pillage on both sides - like the events in Iraq currently, but without the suicide bombing.)
For instance, John Hancock and Geo. Washington are currently defined as "Patriots," but Thomas Hutchinson (Governor of Massachusetts,) was not a Patriot?
For instance, John Hancock and Geo. Washington are currently defined as "Patriots," but Thomas Hutchinson (Governor of Massachusetts,) was not a Patriot?
Jul 4th 2008, 12:50 pm
#49
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Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Province of Vicenza
Posts: 19,037
Re: US Patriotism.
[QUOTE=Tootsie Frickensprinkles;6533727]
I wasnt talking about 16 years ago.
There are a very few restrictions on the placement of poles .. the issue is not needing permission to fly a flag. Given the pole meets all 'planning' rules and regulations you can fly the flag, if it doesn't you need to change position or height of the pole.
Even before the changes in Law it didnt mean you could not fly a flag at a height under anything requiring normal planning, for the most part it meant you couldn't just stick a pole up on any roof you wanted.
If I didnt make myself clear enough though, I apologise .. but I was actually referring to much more recent accusations (I've even seen it in this section of the forum) of people saying councils have banned them from flying flags for 'culturally sensitive' reasons and pointing out it's garbage.
It's not all garbage ..............
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../08/do0801.xml
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/new..._be_racist.php
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...er-plates.html
I wasnt talking about 16 years ago.
There are a very few restrictions on the placement of poles .. the issue is not needing permission to fly a flag. Given the pole meets all 'planning' rules and regulations you can fly the flag, if it doesn't you need to change position or height of the pole.
Even before the changes in Law it didnt mean you could not fly a flag at a height under anything requiring normal planning, for the most part it meant you couldn't just stick a pole up on any roof you wanted.
If I didnt make myself clear enough though, I apologise .. but I was actually referring to much more recent accusations (I've even seen it in this section of the forum) of people saying councils have banned them from flying flags for 'culturally sensitive' reasons and pointing out it's garbage.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../08/do0801.xml
http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/new..._be_racist.php
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...er-plates.html
Jul 4th 2008, 1:05 pm
#50
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,397
Re: US Patriotism.
[QUOTE=Lorna at Vicenza;6534096]
Sorry, I thought we were talking about property and planning permissions etc etc etc .. As far as I'm aware those laws have never had anything to do with vehicles.
The law states you are allowed to fly flags on your private property under all sorts of conditions .. and no one, including the local council can stop you. Any attempt to do so is unenforceable.
Edit: having briefly skimmed the articles, I think it proves that fact it's not enforceable. I have never accepted the word of one officer be it on flags in cars, or T-Shirts in airports to shape my view of what reality is anyway.
I dont think you're allowed anything else on numberplates either.
The law states you are allowed to fly flags on your private property under all sorts of conditions .. and no one, including the local council can stop you. Any attempt to do so is unenforceable.
Edit: having briefly skimmed the articles, I think it proves that fact it's not enforceable. I have never accepted the word of one officer be it on flags in cars, or T-Shirts in airports to shape my view of what reality is anyway.
I dont think you're allowed anything else on numberplates either.
Last edited by Tootsie Frickensprinkles; Jul 4th 2008 at 1:09 pm.
Jul 4th 2008, 1:41 pm
#51
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Re: US Patriotism.
But why is he not as much an American Patriot as Hancock, Washington, etc.? And I'm not being cynical here, just realistic.. presumably, on both sides, Loyalist and "Patriot," folks had mixed motives for their actions and partisan identification; love of country mixed with personal aggrandizement and profit. (For instance, seeking an office of profit and power under the winning regime, or acquiring their neighbour's land if their neighbour was on the losing side.)
Jul 4th 2008, 2:03 pm
#52
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Posts: 38,860
Re: US Patriotism.
But why is he not as much an American Patriot as Hancock, Washington, etc.? And I'm not being cynical here, just realistic.. presumably, on both sides, Loyalist and "Patriot," folks had mixed motives for their actions and partisan identification; love of country mixed with personal aggrandizement and profit. (For instance, seeking an office of profit and power under the winning regime, or acquiring their neighbour's land if their neighbour was on the losing side.)
I have no sympathy for the absentee landholders who had no ties to America other than owning property there, nor any for those who were appointed to positions in the new world because of favoritism, rather than knowledge or understanding of the land or the peoples they were chosen to oversee.
Jul 4th 2008, 2:51 pm
#53
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Re: US Patriotism.
I don't sing 'God Save the Queen' because I'm not British. I'm a born and bred American. To me, asking God to save someone, who is (was) their leader, is not the same as asking God to bless an entire country.
I just can't stand the premise of the whole 'God Bless America' phrase, period. No matter what the lyrics actually are, it seems everyone I meet just ticks me off with the arrogance that God will bless America because we so right deserve it, and everyone else can go to hell. Maybe it's a Southern attitude I'm seeing being in somewhat rural, mostly Conservative, bible-thumping KY, and the attitudes are different in other areas. But here, it just rubs me the wrong way.
For the record, KJ, I also stand and am silent (or sing) the national anthem. I've never been present anywhere where another anthem was being played, but I would respect someone else's equally as much. I just can't stand the overt, over-zealousness I see here.
I just can't stand the premise of the whole 'God Bless America' phrase, period. No matter what the lyrics actually are, it seems everyone I meet just ticks me off with the arrogance that God will bless America because we so right deserve it, and everyone else can go to hell. Maybe it's a Southern attitude I'm seeing being in somewhat rural, mostly Conservative, bible-thumping KY, and the attitudes are different in other areas. But here, it just rubs me the wrong way.
For the record, KJ, I also stand and am silent (or sing) the national anthem. I've never been present anywhere where another anthem was being played, but I would respect someone else's equally as much. I just can't stand the overt, over-zealousness I see here.
The little kid saying his prayers says "God bless mommy, God bless daddy...." Maybe even "God bless my sister". So why on earth wouldn't the Americans ask God to bless America?
It doesn't seem, to me, it imply at all that other nations shouldn't ask God to bless them too, if they are so inclined.
Jul 4th 2008, 3:27 pm
#54
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,577
Re: US Patriotism.
As far as voting goes, in the last Presidential election approximately two thirds of eligible voters registered to vote and of those 70% voted. So under 50% of eligible voters actually voted. In the UK almost everyone gets registered to vote and 61% voted (unusally low, historically over 70% have).
Sorry, that's what I meant by "almost everyone gets registered" - the process is essentially semi-automatic in the sense that it's difficult not to be registered. I guess that wasn't clear. So the UK voting turnouts are essentially of the entire eligible voting population whereas that is not the case in the US.
Jul 4th 2008, 4:04 pm
#55
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 35,082
Re: US Patriotism.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned Viet Nam WRT "Support Our Troops". I think today's response is an effort to not make the error made during that war of people giving returning vets a hard time. ie, making the distinction between "the war" and "the people" who are being sent there and are doing their jobs.
Jul 4th 2008, 4:40 pm
#56
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Re: US Patriotism.
Ah, but I didn't say he wasn't AS MUCH as an American Patriot as them, I said not in the same sense. He chose to go back to the UK, and in his own way he tried to show how moderation would be a better policy then that trumpeted by Lord North. Indeed with HIS roots, Hutchinson certainly WOULD qualify as an American, he just chose to adhere to his loyalty to Britain.
I have no sympathy for the absentee landholders who had no ties to America other than owning property there, nor any for those who were appointed to positions in the new world because of favoritism, rather than knowledge or understanding of the land or the peoples they were chosen to oversee.
Jul 4th 2008, 4:57 pm
#57
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Jul 4th 2008, 5:36 pm
#58
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Re: US Patriotism.
Patriotism is love for one's country, but I dont think that love should be blind. What annoys me about US patriotism is how so many people can talk about supporting the troops and defending freedom, and yet have no idea about what is going on around the world. The people who actively went to the streets to protest against this bullshit war are the true patriots because they actually care about the US's role in the world. I know people who talk about supporting the troops and defeating 'the terrorists in Iraq' and yet could not tell you anything about the situation. I've met people who still think that the 9/11 attackers were Iraqi! I dont see how you can simultaneously love your country and yet know nothing about it. To me patriotism requires taking an active interest in your country and speaking out when you feel something is wrong, not just blindly waving flags at every opportunity.
Jul 4th 2008, 5:40 pm
#59
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: US Patriotism.
(On a side note for an immigration forum, non citizens have run foul of this -- make sure you don't get registered accidentally when applying for a driver license. It can cost you big time.)
Jul 4th 2008, 6:07 pm
#60
A lion in your lap
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Sparta NJ
Posts: 7,605
Re: US Patriotism.
So we just got back from cheering on our local 4th of July parade. Most of it was the usual kind of stuff: marching bands, a beauty queen, bagpipes, vintage cars, a truckload of grizzled WW2 veterans, fire engines, brownies, Trash Gordon from Sesame Street, and Governor John Corzine. But then in the middle of it all was this (photos). We didn't really expect to see this kind of thing - is it unusual for a 4th of July Parade? What do our resident Americans think?