Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > USA
Reload this Page >

UK state pension and USA social security

UK state pension and USA social security

Old Dec 30th 2016, 6:38 pm
  #1306  
 
lansbury's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,313
lansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by TiaMaria57 View Post
Now he has applied for his US pension and he's been told by the officer at his local SSA Office he's going to WEP him by 50%.
The another person I mentioned who had problems if my memory is correct also applied at their local SS office. I applied online and it was all dealt with over the phone I assume, not at my local office but, at a centralized office. The person I dealt with was very knowledgeable about WEP.

A very insignificant sample I know, but I wonder if WEP is going to come into play not applying at a local office might be advantageous.
lansbury is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 7:12 pm
  #1307  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
The another person I mentioned who had problems if my memory is correct also applied at their local SS office. I applied online and it was all dealt with over the phone I assume, not at my local office but, at a centralized office. The person I dealt with was very knowledgeable about WEP.

A very insignificant sample I know, but I wonder if WEP is going to come into play not applying at a local office might be advantageous.
Thank you for your comments. Having read the many threads on this board, including from yourself lansbury, we realize with hindsight that he should have applied on-line but I fear it is too late now that he has set the wheels in motion. It's a small town and clearly they don't understand about British Pensions, or any Foreign pension for that matter in depth . The SSA guy is simply reading his POM's manual and I don't think he even understands that fully!
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 7:18 pm
  #1308  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
I used to do the wages for a company where I worked in the early 70s. The NI stamp contribution was deducted from a persons wages and stuck on their card. It was indeed a flat rate, but it was deducted from wages and that is where the argument that part of the pension is not subject to WEP might fail. It certainly wasn't a voluntary contribution.

You are also not the first to post here that SSA wanted to WEP the whole of a UK State pension regardless of how the contributions were paid on which it was calculated. Unfortunately the other person hasn't returned to say how that was resolved.
I hear what you say but my husband paid his own stamp in those days since he was self employed. It could be even be paid at the post office back then. It was not deducted from wages as he didn't have any wages.....just profits most of the years, but he always paid his stamp to protect his retirement.

I do wish the other person who mentioned this in his comments some time back, would come forward and give us a clue as to what happened to him personally. I do hope he reads this since we need his input.
Thank you TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 7:28 pm
  #1309  
 
lansbury's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,313
lansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond reputelansbury has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by TiaMaria57 View Post
Thank you for your comments. Having read the many threads on this board, including from yourself lansbury, we realize with hindsight that he should have applied on-line but I fear it is too late now that he has set the wheels in motion. It's a small town and clearly they don't understand about British Pensions, or any Foreign pension for that matter in depth . The SSA guy is simply reading his POM's manual and I don't think he even understands that fully!
There is a SSA office in Baltimore that deals with SS for persons living overseas. It is really for people living outside the US or thinking of leaving the US, but they may be able to answer your questions about the UK pension and WEP. At least you would have a point of reference when dealing with your local office.

The phone numbers for the Baltimore office are here. https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/phones.html
lansbury is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 8:06 pm
  #1310  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
There is a SSA office in Baltimore that deals with SS for persons living overseas. It is really for people living outside the US or thinking of leaving the US, but they may be able to answer your questions about the UK pension and WEP. At least you would have a point of reference when dealing with your local office.

The phone numbers for the Baltimore office are here. https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/phones.html
Thank you very much for this link....you make a good point and I think it's just what we need to do. We're planning to retire back in the UK in the near future anyway so we'll have other problems such as tax, etc to deal with. I would ideally like this WEP thing clarifying asap though.
TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 11:39 pm
  #1311  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 30
monkeybrains is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
There is a SSA office in Baltimore that deals with SS for persons living overseas. It is really for people living outside the US or thinking of leaving the US, but they may be able to answer your questions about the UK pension and WEP. At least you would have a point of reference when dealing with your local office.

The phone numbers for the Baltimore office are here. https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/phones.html

I applied on line and then over the phone from the UK....I received an email from Baltimore asking me to call them.....I did a quick google of the name of the person who I was to call in Baltimore and they turned out to be a specialist on foreign person claims...when I did eventually get through (it took about 6 calls) the person was very knowledgeable....she did have to put me on hold for a couple of minutes to speak with the manager but quickly came back and everything was finalized in about 10 minutes.
monkeybrains is offline  
Old Dec 30th 2016, 11:57 pm
  #1312  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by monkeybrains View Post
I applied on line and then over the phone from the UK....I received an email from Baltimore asking me to call them.....I did a quick google of the name of the person who I was to call in Baltimore and they turned out to be a specialist on foreign person claims...when I did eventually get through (it took about 6 calls) the person was very knowledgeable....she did have to put me on hold for a couple of minutes to speak with the manager but quickly came back and everything was finalized in about 10 minutes.
Hi Monkeybrains......But did you get a favorable result? Did you have Pre-1975 stamps paid-up? And if so did you get WEP't on them and therefore weep? 😂
Thanks...TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 3:22 am
  #1313  
nun
BE Forum Addict
 
nun's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,721
nun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond reputenun has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

It's important to understand the WEP rules for your foreign pension and SS contributions because realistically the SSA person is not going to understand the nature of those contributions. So you should write down the history and have it ready and show the amounts that should be included in WEP and those that should not and why.

Here is what I have as an example.

Foreign and non-FICA SS and Pension payments.

UK Social Security Payments, not WEPable
1978-1979 3 years NI for being a student not connected with employment.
1987-2016 30 years of voluntary NI

US state pension....non FICA wages
10 years fully WEPable.

Last edited by nun; Dec 31st 2016 at 3:27 am.
nun is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 5:25 am
  #1314  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by nun View Post
It's important to understand the WEP rules for your foreign pension and SS contributions because realistically the SSA person is not going to understand the nature of those contributions. So you should write down the history and have it ready and show the amounts that should be included in WEP and those that should not and why.

Here is what I have as an example.

Foreign and non-FICA SS and Pension payments.

UK Social Security Payments, not WEPable
1978-1979 3 years NI for being a student not connected with employment.
1987-2016 30 years of voluntary NI

US state pension....non FICA wages
10 years fully WEPable.
Hi nun, Thanks for your reply. This is exactly what we have done, but our local SSA officer won't accept it. I even printed my husbands records from (on-line), DWP and he says that it's not official. It doesn't show detail Pre -1975 because computerization wasn't available then, but it does shows he has the full years. After that period it does show details but the SSA man says it's not acceptable evidience.... even though it has .gov on the heading and even states the last log in time. So, my husband has contacted HMRC and they are mailing him his records, but that will take at least a month to arrive. I just hope it shows more details of the Pre-1975 era because our local guy is loathe to accept any of it! Also I hope that HMRC's record shows details of stamps, but I doubt it will and the WEP instructions manual doesn't explain this to their officers.
Thank you for your advice. And....anyone else who may have gone through this I would dearly love to hear from them. TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 7:30 pm
  #1315  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Apr 2016
Location: California
Posts: 233
Asg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Pension from voluntary contributions while unemployed does not reduce US SS through WEP.
Asg123 is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 7:58 pm
  #1316  
Account Closed
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 38,867
ian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond reputeian-mstm has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by TiaMaria57 View Post
... our local SSA officer won't accept it.
In that case, ask to speak to a supervisor... or go to a different office. SSA is federal - you aren't required to go to your local office.

Ian
ian-mstm is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 10:32 pm
  #1317  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by ian-mstm View Post
In that case, ask to speak to a supervisor... or go to a different office. SSA is federal - you aren't required to go to your local office.

Ian
Thank you for your reply Ian.....you have given us hope. Husband will be having his 3rd meeting with this local guy next week since it's already arranged. If no luck with the paperwork we produce as evidence so far (still waiting for HMRC's stuff), he will ask to speak with someone higher up or change offices or go on-line, as well as call Baltimore Office as has already been suggested.
TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Dec 31st 2016, 11:24 pm
  #1318  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by Asg123 View Post
Pension from voluntary contributions while unemployed does not reduce US SS through WEP.
Hi Asg,
Out of interest why would any years of further education or unemployment voluntary contributions not reduce WEP? They are not based in whole or in part on work performed.

The POMS manual(GN 00307.290) specifically states "Payments which cannot be used to apply WEP...."
...." Some foreign pensions are not based in whole or in part on work performed after 1956. Therefore the following foreign pension payments cannot be used to apply WEP":
Some examples:
"b) Voluntary S S contributions (UK)"
"Since the basis for payment of the Australian, Israeli and New Zealand, pensions are not derived from an individuals work-related earnings, these benefits do NOT cause WEP to apply".
"Netherlands: In addition, certain individuals who have lost their job prior to having attained retirement age may qualify for a 'pre--retirement' payment. This payment is actually a form of unemployment compensation and may not be used to apply WEP"
Then it says "NOTE: The examples listed are not all-inclusive. Other countries allow voluntary contributions, pay family allowance benefits, no so on".

WEP, as I understand from the above, is earnings related. Please tell me if I am reading this wrong and why, because the manual doesn't make it crystal clear.
TiaMaria57 is offline  
Old Jan 1st 2017, 1:03 am
  #1319  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Apr 2016
Location: California
Posts: 233
Asg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond reputeAsg123 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by TiaMaria57 View Post
Hi Asg,
Out of interest why would any years of further education or unemployment voluntary contributions not reduce WEP? They are not based in whole or in part on work performed.

The POMS manual(GN 00307.290) specifically states "Payments which cannot be used to apply WEP...."
...." Some foreign pensions are not based in whole or in part on work performed after 1956. Therefore the following foreign pension payments cannot be used to apply WEP":
Some examples:
"b) Voluntary S S contributions (UK)"
"Since the basis for payment of the Australian, Israeli and New Zealand, pensions are not derived from an individuals work-related earnings, these benefits do NOT cause WEP to apply".
"Netherlands: In addition, certain individuals who have lost their job prior to having attained retirement age may qualify for a 'pre--retirement' payment. This payment is actually a form of unemployment compensation and may not be used to apply WEP"
Then it says "NOTE: The examples listed are not all-inclusive. Other countries allow voluntary contributions, pay family allowance benefits, no so on".

WEP, as I understand from the above, is earnings related. Please tell me if I am reading this wrong and why, because the manual doesn't make it crystal clear.
WEP, if it applies, reduces your US SS. WEP applies to the part of your UK pension arising from work. It does not apply to the part of your pension arising from voluntary contributions while unemployed. So suppose you got a pension based on 15 years, 10 years employed and 5 years voluntary contributions while unemployed, WEP would apply only to the 10 years employed, or 2/3 of your pension, which may mean that your US SS may be reduced by 1/3 of the amount of your UK pension. But there are limits on the reduction, and if you've had a decent-paying job paying SS taxes in the US for over 30 years, there's no reduction at all.
Asg123 is offline  
Old Jan 1st 2017, 1:25 am
  #1320  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Dec 2016
Location: Ex Western North Carolina, now East Yorkshire
Posts: 88
TiaMaria57 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: UK state pension and USA social security

Originally Posted by Asg123 View Post
WEP, if it applies, reduces your US SS. WEP applies to the part of your UK pension arising from work. It does not apply to the part of your pension arising from voluntary contributions while unemployed. So suppose you got a pension based on 15 years, 10 years employed and 5 years voluntary contributions while unemployed, WEP would apply only to the 10 years employed, or 2/3 of your pension, which may mean that your US SS may be reduced by 1/3 of the amount of your UK pension. But there are limits on the reduction, and if you've had a decent-paying job paying SS taxes in the US for over 30 years, there's no reduction at all.
Hi asg,
I apologize I did not read your original reply correctly. I interpreted your answer the other way round. You are saying exactly what we are thinking, (as per the POM manual), in that the years credited to a person by the UK gov (for whatever reason) should not have WEP applied. Thank you for confirming that. The difficulty is showing clear evidence of it to a local SSA Officer who hasn't a clue about how UK National Insurance works, never mind from year dot.
Thank you for taking your time to explain. TM
TiaMaria57 is offline  

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.