Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Feb 29th 2008, 1:46 am
#136
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Well I have read somewhere (could have been on here) that if a hospital, Dr's office here see that you are well insured they may decide to make a bit of a profit out of you to offset the people who default on their payments.
I used the word medicating wrongly...I meant it to cover all treatment not always drugs. However don't Dr's get big payouts from drug companies?
I know of one Dr. here who has had several lovely holidays paid for by a drug company.(and his family paid for too.)
I know that it happens elsewhere but it seems to be on a bigger scale here.
We have the dental thread going which seem to be suggesting that some dentists are buying their next Porche buy doing unneccessary work and over charging.
I used the word medicating wrongly...I meant it to cover all treatment not always drugs. However don't Dr's get big payouts from drug companies?
I know of one Dr. here who has had several lovely holidays paid for by a drug company.(and his family paid for too.)
I know that it happens elsewhere but it seems to be on a bigger scale here.
We have the dental thread going which seem to be suggesting that some dentists are buying their next Porche buy doing unneccessary work and over charging.
Doctor's offices I've seen tend to be full - so why not just see the next patient, rather than do something unnecessary? And most treatments have some level of risk (even if minor) so why would doctors risk getting sued over it? I can't claim to have seen everything - but I just have never heard of it. Nor any scandal over it.
From a quick hunt, it appears that drug companies pay for a lot of doctors continuing ecucation. And also give gifts, pizza - like the average salesman. I cannot find anything anywhere where a doctor is rewarded per perscription - maybe it's out there, but I can't find it.
I honestly am astonished by the dental thing too - I've just never known anyone who had such problems. Granted, I am just one person, but I've lived here my entire life and never of such. How so many people on this board have so many problems (presuming the dentists are actually wrong) just amazes me - I don't know what to say. I certainly know an equal number of yanks, or more, and have never heard similar experiences at all.
So... I dunno I guess.
Feb 29th 2008, 1:48 am
#137
Who?
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Stepford
Posts: 3,098
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Feb 29th 2008, 1:48 am
#138
In the pink
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,324
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
It wasn't a Daily Mail porsche story. I can't afford the overseas subscription to the Mail so I now read the News of the World.
I was talking about Drs and dentists here.
I gave an example about a Dr here who I know and here's another one......
a company that supplies a medical item which costs them $2000 to buy but the hospital bill the insurance company $11500. Where is the profit going?
And what about the patient who has the 10% copay on the $11,500 instead of a more reasonable amount.
In fact this patient cannot afford the copay and so cannot have the "thing" and the hospital will not budge. This man will now have to spend time wheelchair bound until he can afford it, if he ever can. Now he can't work.
The same hospital who will not help have just been patting themselves on the back because they have sent a team of Dr's to some remote part of the world to work for free. All very noble but I think they should help the man here first.
I was talking about Drs and dentists here.
I gave an example about a Dr here who I know and here's another one......
a company that supplies a medical item which costs them $2000 to buy but the hospital bill the insurance company $11500. Where is the profit going?
And what about the patient who has the 10% copay on the $11,500 instead of a more reasonable amount.
In fact this patient cannot afford the copay and so cannot have the "thing" and the hospital will not budge. This man will now have to spend time wheelchair bound until he can afford it, if he ever can. Now he can't work.
The same hospital who will not help have just been patting themselves on the back because they have sent a team of Dr's to some remote part of the world to work for free. All very noble but I think they should help the man here first.
Feb 29th 2008, 1:49 am
#139
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
From a quick hunt, it appears that drug companies pay for a lot of doctors continuing ecucation. And also give gifts, pizza - like the average salesman. I cannot find anything anywhere where a doctor is rewarded per perscription - maybe it's out there, but I can't find it.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A9629C8B63
Feb 29th 2008, 1:53 am
#140
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Do you have the information on that? What company - what device - the bills?
I have no idea really - could it have included the price of installing the device on the person or something?
What the actual profit anyone made, I dunno. Obviously if someone is charging 6 times what they paid for something, without some significant costs involved, the purchaser isn't doing a good job.
Feb 29th 2008, 1:53 am
#141
Queen of my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,043
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
I don't know about this "make a bit more profit" thing. I have honestly never heard of it, or heard anyone complain about it, other than on here.
Doctor's offices I've seen tend to be full - so why not just see the next patient, rather than do something unnecessary? And most treatments have some level of risk (even if minor) so why would doctors risk getting sued over it? I can't claim to have seen everything - but I just have never heard of it. Nor any scandal over it.
From a quick hunt, it appears that drug companies pay for a lot of doctors continuing ecucation. And also give gifts, pizza - like the average salesman. I cannot find anything anywhere where a doctor is rewarded per perscription - maybe it's out there, but I can't find it.
I honestly am astonished by the dental thing too - I've just never known anyone who had such problems. Granted, I am just one person, but I've lived here my entire life and never of such. How so many people on this board have so many problems (presuming the dentists are actually wrong) just amazes me - I don't know what to say. I certainly know an equal number of yanks, or more, and have never heard similar experiences at all.
So... I dunno I guess.
Doctor's offices I've seen tend to be full - so why not just see the next patient, rather than do something unnecessary? And most treatments have some level of risk (even if minor) so why would doctors risk getting sued over it? I can't claim to have seen everything - but I just have never heard of it. Nor any scandal over it.
From a quick hunt, it appears that drug companies pay for a lot of doctors continuing ecucation. And also give gifts, pizza - like the average salesman. I cannot find anything anywhere where a doctor is rewarded per perscription - maybe it's out there, but I can't find it.
I honestly am astonished by the dental thing too - I've just never known anyone who had such problems. Granted, I am just one person, but I've lived here my entire life and never of such. How so many people on this board have so many problems (presuming the dentists are actually wrong) just amazes me - I don't know what to say. I certainly know an equal number of yanks, or more, and have never heard similar experiences at all.
So... I dunno I guess.
I went to the doc last Friday and the same thing happened.....I was in and out in 15 min with no hope of returning for unneccessary procedures. I did have a $15 copay and had to pay $4 for my generic prescription (courtesy of Kroger.....I hear Walmart has the same deal.)
Feb 29th 2008, 1:57 am
#142
Who?
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Stepford
Posts: 3,098
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
I'm sure that you'll now spend a few minutes searching out the post.
I may have mentioned that my OH had the option of paying for private healthcare as part of his package but he still had to pay Nat. Ins.
He did choose to have some BUPA treatment and the hospital was lovely.
The total bill was still less than here.
My mother also had some BUPA treatment because the NHS couldn't provide it quickly enough......yes the NHS failed, that should make you happy.
Her BUPA treatment was again, lovely but it was still cheaper than here.
I would also like to point out that I am not attacking anyone personally. I'm having a go at at system.
For some reason yet again you have decided to make this personal.
Feb 29th 2008, 1:59 am
#143
Who?
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Stepford
Posts: 3,098
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Yes, doing three things at once here.
Do you have the information on that? What company - what device - the bills?
I have no idea really - could it have included the price of installing the device on the person or something?
What the actual profit anyone made, I dunno. Obviously if someone is charging 6 times what they paid for something, without some significant costs involved, the purchaser isn't doing a good job.
Do you have the information on that? What company - what device - the bills?
I have no idea really - could it have included the price of installing the device on the person or something?
What the actual profit anyone made, I dunno. Obviously if someone is charging 6 times what they paid for something, without some significant costs involved, the purchaser isn't doing a good job.
Feb 29th 2008, 2:00 am
#144
In the pink
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,324
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
It wasn't a Daily Mail porsche story. I can't afford the overseas subscription to the Mail so I now read the News of the World.
I was talking about Drs and dentists here.
I gave an example about a Dr here who I know and here's another one......
a company that supplies a medical item which costs them $2000 to buy but the hospital bill the insurance company $11500. Where is the profit going?
And what about the patient who has the 10% copay on the $11,500 instead of a more reasonable amount.
In fact this patient cannot afford the copay and so cannot have the "thing" and the hospital will not budge. This man will now have to spend time wheelchair bound until he can afford it, if he ever can. Now he can't work.
The same hospital who will not help have just been patting themselves on the back because they have sent a team of Dr's to some remote part of the world to work for free. All very noble but I think they should help the man here first.
I was talking about Drs and dentists here.
I gave an example about a Dr here who I know and here's another one......
a company that supplies a medical item which costs them $2000 to buy but the hospital bill the insurance company $11500. Where is the profit going?
And what about the patient who has the 10% copay on the $11,500 instead of a more reasonable amount.
In fact this patient cannot afford the copay and so cannot have the "thing" and the hospital will not budge. This man will now have to spend time wheelchair bound until he can afford it, if he ever can. Now he can't work.
The same hospital who will not help have just been patting themselves on the back because they have sent a team of Dr's to some remote part of the world to work for free. All very noble but I think they should help the man here first.
Feb 29th 2008, 2:00 am
#145
Who?
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Stepford
Posts: 3,098
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
You know, when I think about it...what has that got to do with anything, anyway. It's not what we are talking about.
Feb 29th 2008, 2:04 am
#146
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
I went to the dentist yesterday....got a nice cleaning. Dentist came in and checked me out.....everything in great condition.....I left without even having to pay my copay. (DH and I both have free dental from our employers but that darn dentist just will not suggest any additional procedures that I might or might not need.)
I went to the doc last Friday and the same thing happened.....I was in and out in 15 min with no hope of returning for unneccessary procedures. I did have a $15 copay and had to pay $4 for my generic prescription (courtesy of Kroger.....I hear Walmart has the same deal.)
I went to the doc last Friday and the same thing happened.....I was in and out in 15 min with no hope of returning for unneccessary procedures. I did have a $15 copay and had to pay $4 for my generic prescription (courtesy of Kroger.....I hear Walmart has the same deal.)
Feb 29th 2008, 2:07 am
#147
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
I'm sure you appreciate it's hard to comment without knowing the details - but I will certainly say, if someone is paying an amount where the seller is making 500% profit, that is pretty piss-poor purchasing.
Except... I just read back - who is getting the profit? The company selling the device, or the hospital? I wasn't sure what the hospital paid for it (perhaps it's too early here, and I haven't had enough coffee yet).
Obviously, everyone needs to make some profit, or they wouldn't stay in business. But not normally that kind of percentage.
Feb 29th 2008, 3:02 am
#148
Queen of my house
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,043
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Fair enough - of course you can't.
I'm sure you appreciate it's hard to comment without knowing the details - but I will certainly say, if someone is paying an amount where the seller is making 500% profit, that is pretty piss-poor purchasing.
Except... I just read back - who is getting the profit? The company selling the device, or the hospital? I wasn't sure what the hospital paid for it (perhaps it's too early here, and I haven't had enough coffee yet).
Obviously, everyone needs to make some profit, or they wouldn't stay in business. But not normally that kind of percentage.
I'm sure you appreciate it's hard to comment without knowing the details - but I will certainly say, if someone is paying an amount where the seller is making 500% profit, that is pretty piss-poor purchasing.
Except... I just read back - who is getting the profit? The company selling the device, or the hospital? I wasn't sure what the hospital paid for it (perhaps it's too early here, and I haven't had enough coffee yet).
Obviously, everyone needs to make some profit, or they wouldn't stay in business. But not normally that kind of percentage.
My ex works for a major hospital group....hospitals do not make that kind of profit off of devices. Much of their profit comes from services like x-ray reading (of which they farm out non-emergency readings to doctors in India via the internet! for a fraction of the cost that an American doctor would charge.)
Feb 29th 2008, 3:07 am
#149
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 4,186
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Well, there you go. Here in the US, this is how long I have to wait for my non-emergency care. The situation appears to be no better for me, who pays monthly premiums for my insurance and full retail for dental, than it would be under a single-payer plan.
So once again, the argument that Americans don't have to wait as long as their oppressed foreign brethren doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Perhaps this Business Week article will help you. They also cite a study by UC San Francisco that reaches similar conclusions to what were found in the Commonwealth study:
___________
There is no systemized, nationwide collection of data on wait times in the U.S., making it difficult to compare delays to those in countries with national health systems, who typically track and publish data on wait times. But a 2005 survey conducted by the Commonwealth Fund of sicker adults in six highly industrialized countries found that only Canada was worse than the U.S. when it came to waiting six days or longer to schedule a doctor's appointment for a medical problem.
Of the countries surveyed, 81% of patients in New Zealand got a same or next-day appointment for a nonroutine visit, 71% in Britain, 69% in Germany, 66% in Australia, 47% in the U.S., and 36% in Canada. Those lengthy wait times in the U.S. explain why 26% of Americans reported going to an emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor if available, higher than every other country surveyed...
...In the UCSF study published last year, the researchers set out to determine how long it would take to get an appointment in 12 cities to examine a face mole that had changed color, a common warning sign of skin cancer. They found a range of mean wait times according to geography, from 20 days in Little Rock to 73 days in Boston. The researchers pointed out that the wait in rural areas, where dermatologists are scarcer, are likely much longer.
http://www.businessweek.com/print/te...621_716260.htm
Last edited by RoadWarriorFromLP; Feb 29th 2008 at 3:09 am.
Feb 29th 2008, 3:33 am
#150
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: NW Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,253
Re: Response to me saying universal healthcare is inevitable in the US
Now you're trying to have it both ways. Previously, you offered this complaint about wait times in nationalized systems: "Basic, emergency care - i.e. beds, is not generally a problem is socialized systems, at least not as far as I know. Waiting for non-emergency care can be."
Well, there you go. Here in the US, this is how long I have to wait for my non-emergency care. The situation appears to be no better for me, who pays monthly premiums for my insurance and full retail for dental, than it would be under a single-payer plan.
So once again, the argument that Americans don't have to wait as long as their oppressed foreign brethren doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
At this point, I'm becoming convinced that you don't want to see it. It doesn't seem that any amount of quantitative data will get you to see anything that might force you to change your opinion.
Perhaps this Business Week article will help you. They also cite a study by UC San Francisco that reaches similar conclusions to what were found in the Commonwealth study:
___________
There is no systemized, nationwide collection of data on wait times in the U.S., making it difficult to compare delays to those in countries with national health systems, who typically track and publish data on wait times. But a 2005 survey conducted by the Commonwealth Fund of sicker adults in six highly industrialized countries found that only Canada was worse than the U.S. when it came to waiting six days or longer to schedule a doctor's appointment for a medical problem.
Of the countries surveyed, 81% of patients in New Zealand got a same or next-day appointment for a nonroutine visit, 71% in Britain, 69% in Germany, 66% in Australia, 47% in the U.S., and 36% in Canada. Those lengthy wait times in the U.S. explain why 26% of Americans reported going to an emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor if available, higher than every other country surveyed...
...In the UCSF study published last year, the researchers set out to determine how long it would take to get an appointment in 12 cities to examine a face mole that had changed color, a common warning sign of skin cancer. They found a range of mean wait times according to geography, from 20 days in Little Rock to 73 days in Boston. The researchers pointed out that the wait in rural areas, where dermatologists are scarcer, are likely much longer.
http://www.businessweek.com/print/te...621_716260.htm
Well, there you go. Here in the US, this is how long I have to wait for my non-emergency care. The situation appears to be no better for me, who pays monthly premiums for my insurance and full retail for dental, than it would be under a single-payer plan.
So once again, the argument that Americans don't have to wait as long as their oppressed foreign brethren doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
At this point, I'm becoming convinced that you don't want to see it. It doesn't seem that any amount of quantitative data will get you to see anything that might force you to change your opinion.
Perhaps this Business Week article will help you. They also cite a study by UC San Francisco that reaches similar conclusions to what were found in the Commonwealth study:
___________
There is no systemized, nationwide collection of data on wait times in the U.S., making it difficult to compare delays to those in countries with national health systems, who typically track and publish data on wait times. But a 2005 survey conducted by the Commonwealth Fund of sicker adults in six highly industrialized countries found that only Canada was worse than the U.S. when it came to waiting six days or longer to schedule a doctor's appointment for a medical problem.
Of the countries surveyed, 81% of patients in New Zealand got a same or next-day appointment for a nonroutine visit, 71% in Britain, 69% in Germany, 66% in Australia, 47% in the U.S., and 36% in Canada. Those lengthy wait times in the U.S. explain why 26% of Americans reported going to an emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor if available, higher than every other country surveyed...
...In the UCSF study published last year, the researchers set out to determine how long it would take to get an appointment in 12 cities to examine a face mole that had changed color, a common warning sign of skin cancer. They found a range of mean wait times according to geography, from 20 days in Little Rock to 73 days in Boston. The researchers pointed out that the wait in rural areas, where dermatologists are scarcer, are likely much longer.
http://www.businessweek.com/print/te...621_716260.htm
Emergency care = life-threatening or urgent, needs to be seen today
Routine = checkup, etc. - months of wait make no difference
Other = specialist, surgery, elective - doesn't need to be seen today, but long wait can cause suffering or be life-threatening.
I could care less how long the waits are for routine care. In either country. It doesn't matter - plan ahead for heaven's sake.
Emergency care - in the US or the other systems, in general, people get can treated right away.
It's the other stuff that seems to (at least at times) have problems in the socialized systems.
Rural America - it is spread out. If you're not willing/can't travel to a larger area, I guess it might take longer.
Re. the mole - my friends had one in the Chicago area - had them off the next week. One of my future family members had one in the UK - waited over 3 months, it has spread, and he will die. Someone else in the family had one in the UK - waited 4 months - thankfully is ok.
Keith just mentioned - in the US he saw the asthma specialist the next week in Michigan (they actually offered the next day). Back in the UK with asthma flare-ups, he waited 6 weeks (visiting casualty in the meantime).
Yes that's a couple examples, but...
Maybe somehow some sort of averages were different, but these are the kinds of things we are afraid of with socialized medicine. And no, I will never believe it doesn't happen, because I've seen it myself. Repeatedly.
Not saying our system is perfect or that it doesn't need changes, but nothing in all of this discussion has convinced me that socialized medicine is a good idea here in the US.
