Bob

Kind of treated like a second hand citizen if you don't have one...

snowbunny

It is a de facto internal *identification document* -- it does not contain anything regarding where one was born, what citizenship one holds, etc. It never has, and it never will. The reason it's used is precisely because there isn't an "internal passport" of any kind that can be used. No NHS -- no NHS card.

Americans have long resisted having any sort of nationwide identification card. They don't want it. They are perfectly happy with using their driver's licence and their Social Security numbers as unique identifiers, when in reality those were designed for, well, driving and social insurance schemes.

What is going to happen is this: if an illegal immigrant cannot get a valid DL (and I'm going to assume that they can't get a valid "ID" card which is a true identity card and confers no driving privileges, without a valid visa) then they won't be able to cash checks, open bank accounts, etc. They'll be forced into using the cash-only system along with every other criminal element that has to operate on a cash-only basis. They probably won't even be able to get a library card! ;-)

What, exactly, is this going to accomplish? It is only going to drive the huge illegal immigrant population from Latin America further underground. It has sweet fa to do with terrorist immigrants, which was the goal. Apparently, one of the 9/11 hijackers had a valid DL. So what?! Oh yeah, you can't FLY as a passenger without "photo ID."

The government is trying to skirt the real issue of national identity cards by forcing immigration status checks onto state government. It's just.... ridiculous, and it isn't going to keep terrorists from just forging the things left and right. It *will* seriously impair our illegal immigrant worker population, and they'll just get screwed even harder. Oh well.

Believe me, George W. Bush WANTS that illegal immigrant population here. He doesn't want to SAY it, is all.

fatbrit

It's certainly possible to open a bank account without a valid DL. For our friends south of the border, the matrica consular is the most commonly used document. Certainly here in AZ, the banks have been actively attracting this business, no doubt because they have seen so much of it going to the check-cash type businesses. Given the strength of the banking lobby in Washington, I can't see this changing in the near future. Of course, the banks maintain the apartheid system by not allowing access to credit for these folks!

However, outside the main banks it's certainly possible to obtain secured credit as an "illegal". One interesting step in AZ recently has been that it is impossible to notarize documents unless the signer possesses a US government-issued ID. Dunno where this one is going to go, but no doubt someone will find a loophole if the state starts actually enforcing it!

snowbunny

Yep, exploit the illegals by forcing them into having fewer options, then charging them more. George has no huevos. He's said he wants the current illegal worker population to gain amnesty, but then turns round and sponsors something in the name of counter-terrorism that will really just screw over that same worker population. The fact that banks and the more underground monetary systems will benefit is just icing on the cake we're all supposed to be eating.

fatbrit

Gross hypocrisy all round!

If the government can't respect the laws it created, why should the people?

Counter-terrorism and security have just become an excuse for the removal of human rights and/or supporting the growth of bureaucracy, inefficiency and corporate profits. The most worrying factor is many Americans appear totally oblivious to this.

snowbunny

The majority of Americans don't live in border states. They have no clue what the measure is going to mean in practical terms. It sounds innocuous enough.

Shall we just go drink ourselves into oblivion to ease the pain?

fatbrit

It's the number one issue! But instead of confronting the issue they pass stupid pieces of legislation such as the Real ID Act, AZ Prop 200, or we have the Minutemen vigilantes. And I can sympathize with these people who sponsored the legislation or stand under the desert sun: they are angry that the Feds are not enforcing the law and are trying to force their hand. Their outright racism often pisses me off, though! But these regulations are going nowhere because they are trying to treat some of the symptoms without addressing the problem.

Americans need to decide the southern immigration problem from the beginning. Do you want this immigration? Do you want a gastarbeiter program? What are you going to do with those already here? How are we going to ensure there is not such a great divide in wealth with a bordering country?These questions need to be answered truthfully, openly and all together. Implementing them should not be such a great problem. But nobody can implement a plan of action based on half-truths and hypocrisy!

scrubbedexpat099

I think I pretty much agree with everything everybody has said, must go and lie down in a dark room.

We were watching Law and Order and the story line started with a train wreck, soon terrorist action had been pretty much ruled out ruled out but they used the Patriot Act to get a search warrant as they would not have been able to do so without a 'possible' terrorist connection.

PS I do not think a guest worker programme would work, did not work in Germany or anywhere else I can think of this side of a totalitarian state. (probably works fine in Saudi).

The current situation is convenient for too many monied interests.

snowbunny

Yep. I hate to think what would happen if those Minutemen actually became very successful.

scrubbedexpat099

Empty Church's - how many would you need to cover the whole border?

Now I readily admit to not paying much attention in Divinity classes but I would have thought that if you were that way inclined you would be offering help rather than hinderance.

snowbunny

Depends. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's": you should obey and help enforce the law, where you can.

"Treat every stranger the way you would treat Jesus": you would take every immigrant in and feed and clothe them.

I imagine Jesus would get a rather rude surprise if He decided to return as a wetback crossing into Arizona.

Bob

He'll come to maine first, there's a sign by a church claiming that jesus walked these lands *lol*

fatbrit

One of the consequences of tightening border security (even before the Minutemen started) was that those who used to come, work for a while, then go home (and repeat this as and when necessary) decided it was probably easier to bring the whole family and stay. So they did. You cannot cure the problem by sealing the border!

fatbrit

No way! He walked upon England's pastures green. I think you should tell them of their little mistake.

mandpete

Is that the same man who walked on water too?

He'd have no chance getting an NJ driving licence either, bloody foreigner