Samantha

Now what exactly is "American Culture"? I personally, am not familiar with it. Does
it include holidays such as "St Patrick's Day", and "Christmas"?

Rete, you said:
    > the US. In essence they have chosen to oblivate the American culture by ignoring
    > its existence and refusing to merge with a country they choose to use for their
    > financial and political gain.

Do you have any proof for this statement? How do I know that these immigrants are
using America for their financial and political gain?

-Samantha

    > The author of this letter is contradicting himself. The United States IS a melting
    > pot . To say that American culture is in danger of being destroyed through
    > "tainting" by other cultures is ludicrous. Rather, the current, existing American
    > culture is enriched by each new introduction of another culture and/or language.
    >
    > ~ Jenney
    >
    > But that is the whole point. They are not assimilating themselves or their cultures
    > into the fabric of American Society. They are deliberately keeping themselves away
    > from American Society and developing enclaves of their own "former" society within
    > the borders of

    > Rete

Samantha

Rete <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > It was their choice. My daughter has a friend who is Japanese, Chemi. Chemi has
    > lived in the US since the age of 5. She is now in her 30's. Her parents, her
    > mother in particular, cannot speak more than hello and goodbye in English after 30
    > years. She only associates with other Japanese. These are the migrants I find
    > intolerable and for whom I have no compassion. And yet I have friends from Ireland
    > and Italy who adapted to their new country. They speak the language of this
    > country at home and have chosen to become US citizens. They, to my way of
    > thinking, have followed in the footsteps of the millions of immigrants who came to
    > this country before them.

You also have to realize, that your Irish and Italian friends were able to easily
adapt to American culture, because of how they look. Japanese people don't look
white, and thus find it harder to adapt. Something you should take into
consideration.

-Samantha

Samantha

    > Hoax or not, I as an United States Citizen agree with it 100%

So the truth doesn't matter to you?

    > countries, they also all became US citizens and left their Polish and German
    > costumes in Poland and Germany. They did not live a world

Interesting that you refer to your own ancestors' everyday clothes as "costumes".

Also, many of you fail to realize, that I have not expressed any opinion in the
actual story in question. I merely wanted to find the original source.

-Samantha

Samantha

    > I'll use my English any way I darned well please. In our FWIW column, I was the
    > salutatorian of a high school class of about 140 people. I scored 99%-tile on the
    > ACT in English, and had a 97% overall on my ACT test. I have a 3.99 GPA in college.
    > Make no mistake, dearie, i know my english, and I can speak it when I want to. It
    > is my choice to speak it the way I want here, and whether you like it or not is
    > inconsequential to me.

Fantastic. So I suppose this means that we won't be seeing any more excessive
punctuation on your part

-Samantha

Chris Moorehead

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] says...
    > Rete <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > > It was their choice. My daughter has a friend who is Japanese, Chemi. Chemi has
    > > lived in the US since the age of 5. She is now in her 30's. Her parents, her
    > > mother in particular, cannot speak more than hello and goodbye in English after
    > > 30 years. She only associates with other Japanese. These are the migrants I find
    > > intolerable and for whom I have no compassion. And yet I have friends from
    > > Ireland and Italy who adapted to their new country. They speak the language of
    > > this country at home and have chosen to become US citizens. They, to my way of
    > > thinking, have followed in the footsteps of the millions of immigrants who came
    > > to this country before them.
    >
    > You also have to realize, that your Irish and Italian friends were able to easily
    > adapt to American culture, because of how they look. Japanese people don't look
    > white, and thus find it harder to adapt. Something you should take into
    > consideration.
    >
    > -Samantha
    >

I have always found it bizarre that Americans, for the most part, not only have
absolutely no desire to learn any foreign languages, but are very PROUD of that
fact. My wife, who was born in the US, speaks Ukrainian, Spanish, French & German
fluently in addition to English, & is looked on as some sort of freak by many "real"
Americans. When she speaks any one of these languages with her parents (they tend to
speak whatever language expresses their thoughts best) in the grocery store, she
gets dirty looks from the other shoppers, as if she has no right to speak anything
but English.

My wife, BTW, is considered by many not to be a "real" American because she has a
funny name. A typical response when she is asked where she's from & she replies,
"Wilmington, Delaware" is, "no, where are you REALLY from?". I never get this
treatment, & I AM a foreigner (Canadian).

Chris

--
CHRISTOPHER J. MOOREHEAD Durham, NC [email protected]

"It is only those who have neither fired a shot, nor heard the shrieks and groans of
the wounded, who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation." ~ William
Tecumseh Sherman

justme

Rete,

"German was never spoken in our home and neither my sister nor I know either of our ancestors languages."

Do you think this is something of which you should be proud? I'm honestly just asking. I don't know why anyone would declare, "I speak no foreign languages, and thank goodness for that." And if you think this, I'd really like to know why a person would want to limit themselves and never learn a foreign language. (Although maybe you do speak one or several; just not German or Polish?)

Although I think that if settling in the United States, one should learn English as close to fluently as possible, I don't believe that to "become American" an immigrant must stop speaking their native language and ONLY speak English. And I apply that to any immigrant in any country, and to whatever languages. Continuing to speak your native language is not refusing to adapt unless you choose not learn the other country's language.

My fiance speaks both German and fluent English (as well as having learned a couple of other languages), and I speak German, English, and Spanish. We fully intend to have our children, should we have any, learn German, as well as any other language they desire.


"Although you cherish your ancestory, you adapt yourself and your famly to where you have chosen to live. As a German, Christmas Eve is more important and Christmas Day and celebrated as such. Easter is the holiest of holidays because of Polish tradition."

I'm curious why you mentioned this about German and Polish holidays. Would you mind elaborating?

Just Jenney

Funny you should mention that. When we were living in Chile, my ex and I tried speaking only Spanish at home to each other. This experiment lasted about two weeks. The problem was, neither of us is a native speaker, so we ended up just reinforcing incorrect vocabulary and improper grammar. This just impeded our efforts to learn correct Spanish, not enhance them.

Our conversations were so limited by our knowledge of Spanish that we just couldn't carry on beyond the very basics of mundane descriptions of our respective days. This just made us frustrated and grounded our talking practically to a halt. After a long and stressful day at work, carried on almost entirely in Spanish, we wanted home to be a refuge and place to relax and be ourselves. And speaking English is part of who we are. We spoke Spanish everywhere else -- at work, the store, the bank, the vet, etc. -- home was the one place we felt justified in allowing ourselves to speak English freely.

There are many factors as to why immigrants don't learn English, or not enough to speak it fluently. Language lessons cost money; I know, because I was an English teacher myself. If an immigrant knows someone who is a fluent English speaker AND is willing to spend lots of time and effort helping him to learn the language, then he is a very lucky man. But I would say that a great number of immigrants DO NOT fall into that category.

Also, learning another language is HARD. From experience, both as a student and teacher, I know that some people's brains are wired for it, while others' are not. Many adults have a difficult time adapting to a new language, while their children do not. And don't forget that some languages are closer to English than others. Languages such as Chinese and Arabic are very distant from English in terms of writing and pronunciation, versus languages such as French or German.

As I've said before, if Americans REALLY want immigrants to assimilate and learn English, they have to be willing to reach out and help immigrants do just that. Standing by and simply saying, "They're not trying hard enough" is not enough. Show them the way, give them a means by which to practice, and it'll happen.

~ Jenney

Samantha

Well said Jenney! You said it better than I possibly could have.

I think travelling does do a lot for one's mind as you have experienced yourself.

-Samantha

    > Two points:
    >
    > 1) Using the word "they" connotates generalizations, which is always a dangerous
    > thing to do. Do you honestly think that ALL immigrants "are not assimilating
    > themselves"? That ALL immigrants -- each and every one -- "are deliberately
    > keeping themselves away from American society"? I doubt it.
    >
    > The influence of immigrants is integrated into American culture all the time. Just
    > think of all the little ways that our culture has been modified to include things
    > introduced from all over the world. For instance, the growing interest in practices
    > such as Zen Buddhism, acupuncture and feng shui. The huge popularity of Mexican
    > foods and massive numbers of Chinese restaurants all over the country. The
    > increasing number of people signing up for martial arts classes. These things
    > didn't just magically "appear" in American culture; they were introduced and
    > integrated into it. They are considered as much a part of American culture today as
    > rock-and-roll.
    >
    > So, as for your statement, "They are not assimilating themselves or their cultures
    > into the fabric of American Society" -- what I described above is EXACTLY THAT --
    > an assimilation of immigrant cultures into the fabric of American society.
    >
    > 2) It is naive to think that the ONLY reason immigrants "develop enclaves of their
    > own 'former' society" is because they are "ignoring [the] existence [of American
    > culture]". I think this couldn't be further than the truth.
    >
    > There are exceptions, but the American population as a whole DOES NOT tend to
    > embrace immigrants with open arms, welcoming them like new members to the family,
    > and offering acceptance of and patience with any cultural and/or linguistic
    > differences. Having grown up in an area with immigrants representing just about
    > every place on earth -- Washington, DC -- I have witnessed the exact opposite time
    > and again. More often than not, immigrants are met with apathy and indifference, at
    > best, from their American neighbors. (Immigrants who are "not really foreign" --
    > ie, from the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa, etc. -- fair much better.)
    >
    > Having said that, I think it is reasonable to expect people to want to be around
    > others who understand their language, their cultural traditions, choice of clothing
    > style and, most importantly, understand what it's like to be an immigrant. Their
    > American-born neighbors aren't usually so understanding, accepting, tolerant,
    > patient or forgiving.
    >
    > Another reason is economics. It seems that most immigrant enclaves tend to be in
    > the poorer sections of town. People who, due to economic limitations, are forced to
    > live only in certain areas are much less likely to interact with people from other
    > (read: wealthier) areas. This is despite whether the person is an immigrant or
    > native-born American. Just ask any inner-city American kid if he's ever been
    > invited to the pool party of a middle-classed classmate. Throw in cultural and
    > linguistic differences, and the chances are even slimmer. As much as we Americans
    > like to say classism doesn't exist here, it does.
    >
    > Trying to assimilate and become part of American society is MUCH harder than it
    > looks, and laying the blame solely on the immigrant's shoulders is close-minded,
    > naive and unfair. They have a lot of obstacles placed before them, and not all of
    > them are within their control -- such as whether their American neighbors will
    > welcome and help them to become part of American society.
    >
    > If Americans truly want a "pure" American society, they need to reach out to
    > immigrants and assist them in assimilating, rather than turning their backs and
    > then moaning that immigrants aren't trying. However, I think that our culture
    > and society as we know it would become rather dull and uninspiring if that were
    > to happen.
    >
    > ~ Jenney
    >
    >
    >
    > --

Matta Harri

In article <[email protected]>, Jenney &amp; Mark
<[email protected]> wrote:
    > As I've said before, if Americans REALLY want immigrants to assimilate and learn
    > English, they have to be willing to reach out and help immigrants do just that.
    > Standing by and simply saying, "They're not trying hard enough" is not enough. Show
    > them the way, give them a means by which to practice, and it'll happen.
    >
Good God, woman, what hole have you been hiding in? There are free english courses
everywhere you look in this country, for anyone who wants to attend. What more would
you have us do? Pay them to attend?

matta

Matta Harri

In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
(Samantha) wrote:

    > > I'll use my English any way I darned well please. In our FWIW column, I was the
    > > salutatorian of a high school class of about 140 people. I scored 99%-tile on the
    > > ACT in English, and had a 97% overall on my ACT test. I have a 3.99 GPA in
    > > college. Make no mistake, dearie, i know my english, and I can speak it when I
    > > want to. It is my choice to speak it the way I want here, and whether you like it
    > > or not is inconsequential to me.
    >
    > Fantastic. So I suppose this means that we won't be seeing any more excessive
    > punctuation on your part
    >
You can suppose that I will punctuate and use any language that I so choose. Remember
that 1st amendment?

matta

Mrtravel

Matta Harri wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
    > (Samantha) wrote:
    >
    > > > I'll use my English any way I darned well please. In our FWIW column, I was the
    > > > salutatorian of a high school class of about 140 people. I scored 99%-tile on
    > > > the ACT in English, and had a 97% overall on my ACT test. I have a 3.99 GPA in
    > > > college. Make no mistake, dearie, i know my english, and I can speak it when I
    > > > want to. It is my choice to speak it the way I want here, and whether you like
    > > > it or not is inconsequential to me.
    > >
    > > Fantastic. So I suppose this means that we won't be seeing any more excessive
    > > punctuation on your part
    > >
    > You can suppose that I will punctuate and use any language that I so choose.
    > Remember that 1st amendment?

The 1st Amendment means Congress can't pass laws restricting your use of this
newsgroup for bad punctuation. The First Amendment doesn't apply to non
government speech.

Matta Harri

In article <[email protected]>,
mrtravel <[email protected]> wrote:
    > The 1st Amendment means Congress can't pass laws restricting your use of this
    > newsgroup for bad punctuation. The First Amendment doesn't apply to non
    > government speech.

Well, if anyone does not want to read what I write, they have a kill file hopefully.
That's their choice. matta

Just Jenney

I'm sure the Haitian or Vietnamese or Bolivian immigrant down the road who's working 14-hour days making minimum wage to support his family can squeeze in that free course.

Free doesn't mean comprehensive or good. It just means that it doesn't cost anything.

A better classroom is being amongst people who are native speakers and who are WILLING and PATIENT enough to help the immigrant learn the language through submersion. Being stuck in a classroom with 30 other people who also can't speak English, with one instructor for an hour each week just doesn't cut it.

~ Jenney

scotsman-usa

Regarding the original post, I think having your picture taken with your head covered when it is to be used for identification is defeating the purpose of the picture. Many have posted that her religion does not actually say she can't have her picture taken with her head uncovered and I say even if it did, if she wants a drivers license she should uncover, it is not like the picutre will be posted for all to see, just for someone requesting identification, like maybe an office pulling her over on a traffic stop.

I think people should learn the language of the country they are living in, I don't care what caused you to come here to live, you should still make the effort, just like I would expect to if I went to live in another country. Unlike some other posters here, I don't think you have to leave your native language and customs behind. I have an iranian friend that has made a lot of effort to learn english and even after being here more than 10 years is still trying to improve. She would often ask about pronunciation of words she had trouble with and I even managed to teach her to pronounce a word she had had trouble with for years! - wish I could remember the word now! She does speak her native language often, even in front of me when she is with someone who is from her country. I think I would find it rude if I didn't know how hard she tried to learn English and that she felt it was important to keep her native language too. She has a small neice that she only talks to in her native language so that the child will not loose her heritage, of course at home and at school the child learns and speaks english too. I think it is good to have two languages, if parents speak different languages they should teach their children both. Children can pick up two languages very easy and it can help them in their future to be bilingual, and if they go to their parents home country to visit relatives they will be able to communicate with them.

I live in an area in virginia reffered to as little Korea, the reason being we have a large Korea poplulation here and they are basically taking over most of the businesses in the area. I have nothing against Korean peope, and to some degree understand them wanting a little of home in their new lives. What I don't like or understand is that a lot of their signs for their businesses are in Korean only (I wouldn't mind both english and korean) and a lot of the businesses do not want Americans to come in. They are rude, try to discourage you and a lot of times just ignore you, hoping you won't come back. Not all of them are like that, some are very friendly and obviously are happy to be part of the WHOLE community not just the korean part. I object to the ones that come in and take over our area and expect us to stay out when we were here first and are welcoming them in.

I read about posts from people saying they tried to immigrate to another country and found it hard, I understand that it would be, but I would think coming to america, especially to some of the bigger cities, it would be a little eaiser, because we have such a culturly diverse country. I think having a little of everthing from everywhere is a good thing, but I do think trying to build you own exclusive community is bad for the unity of the country along with not trying to learn the language, unoffical language but still the accepted official language.

Carole

    >
    >She has a small neice that she only talks to in her native language so that the
    >child will not loose her heritage, of course at home and at school the child learns
    >and speaks english too. I think it is good to have two languages, if parents speak
    >different languages they should teach their children both. Children can pick up two
    >languages very easy and it can help them in their future to be bilingual, and if
    >they go to their parents home country to visit relatives they will be able to
    >communicate with them.
    >

I agree with this wholeheartedly! Now here's an interesting twist to this
conversation: What happens when the American wife (me) is determined that her
children should learn Russian from the cradle, while the Russian husband is
vehemently against this and declares he doesn't WANT his children speaking
Russian? This is the situation in which Pavel and I currently find ourselves,
and it seems like something out of the twilight zone to me. I do hope we get
this resolved by the time we have children (which we're actively working on).

The argument usually goes like this. I say that our children must learn Russian,
and that their daddy is the one who's going to have to teach them. It's not just
some whim of mine - Pavel's parents speak about 3 words of English between them.
His granny learned English in her youth and can read it now if given a night or
two to decode it, but as you can imagine, she hasn't spoken it much in her
lifetime. Our children are not likely to see their Russian family much, since
they all live in Moscow, so I do want them to be able to talk to their
grandparents on the phone or write letters to them in Russian. It will be much
easier for a child (especially one with a Russian parent!) to learn Russian than
to expect the older members of the family to learn English. Besides, being
bi-lingual can only be an asset to a child.

I've told Pavel that I want him to speak only Russian to our children until
they're about 6 years old, both in and outside the home. That's the only way
they're going to learn. If, to converse with daddy, they HAVE to use it, they
will use it. This would also help ME to learn more Russian. I have learned a few
words and phrases here and there, but it's hard to learn when I rarely hear him
speaking it. Also, I've heard so many people with foreign parents say that they
really regret that their parent didn't teach them his or her native language
when they were young and it would have been so much easier to learn.

Pavel, on the other hand, is appalled by this whole conversation, and declares
that he will NOT speak Russian to his children. He is fanatical about doing
everything the AMERICAN way, and he has absolutely no patience with foreigners
who get in public and go to babbling in some foreign language. He says he would
rather be tortured to death than get in public and embarrass his children by
speaking Russian to them. Why he believes this should embarrass them is beyond
my ken. He says he's not about to get out in public and start babbling like he
so hates to hear other foreigners do. As for his family back in Russia, well,
that's just their tough luck - he can translate, if they want to talk to their
grandchildren. Besides, he says, they've claimed they want to learn English for
years, so now would be an appropriate time to start.

This is immensely frustrating to me. While I admire Pavel's determination to
adapt and fit in with the American way of things, there is much to be said for
keeping one's own heritage alive and being proud of it. Especially when you have
immediate family still in the 'old country'! I have tried to explain to him that
he won't know what it's like to be American until he can feel PROUD of his
Russian heritage - my daddy is constantly lecturing him about this, as well.
This is an odd position for someone from daddy's generation to find himself in,
since they grew up thinking Russians were pretty much Satan. He shook his head
the other day and said to me, "You know, if anyone had told me 50 years ago that
I'd be sitting here explaining to a Russian why he should be proud of his
heritage, I'd have laughed at them!". We've tried to explain that as Americans,
our children will be proud of their Russian heritage and will surely resent
Pavel for making such an effort to keep it from them. But it doesn't matter what
we say - he just declares that HIS children are going to be AMERICANS.

I don't know how we'll resolve this issue, since neither of us is bending. I've
told him (only half joking) that if he fools with me, I'll invite his mama to
come and live with us when we have children - SHE would resolve the Russian
problem, since she wouldn't be able to speak anything else to them. If I thought
his granny would ever leave Russia, she would be even better - not only would
she teach the child Russian, she'd also jerk a durned good knot in Pavel's tail
about the way he's acting. He adores his granny... she'd get him straightened
out double quick, if only she was here to do it. He talks to her frequently on
the phone, but of course, he just leaves out little details like this (and about
his name change!) so there's nothing for her to fuss at him about. *sigh*
Pavel's daddy asks every time they talk "When am I going to be a granddaddy?".
Poor man... if only he knew that he'll probably never get to talk to the poor
little things.

Maybe Pavel will feel different when he actually sees his children... or maybe
I'll change MY mind then. I sure hope one of us does. How have those of you with
children handled this? How do the rest of you PLAN to handle it? Does everyone
have such a conflict over it as this?

Carole