Jadm

    > This is very interesting. I have looked for the original source of this article
    > that was posted. And everywhere its just a link some one else posted. Does any one
    > have _any_ idea exactly where this newspaper is?
    >
    > I looked for the specific article in question under the newspapers from Tampa. I
    > failed to see anything.
    >
    > I am inclined to believe that there was no real article printed, besides a troll of
    > some sort.
    >
    > -Samantha

Hi Samantha ~~~ I did the same and didnt find it either, I am in 1 of the yahoo pet
groups and somebody posted it there....let us know if you find the original* John &
Deb (UK-USA)

Jadm

............ ((LOL))

Patrick

There is another serious side to this - in Preston and Burnley about 5 years ago they had to stop people in burkas going in to banks, building societies and some shops because people (of unknown sex and ethnicity) where going into these places and commiting armed robbery.

If the laws are changed to allow covered faces on ID's there are those individuals not as honest as you and I that may take advantage of this.

I'm not for one moment saying that the people pushing for this change have any intention of doing anything illegal. If there is a way of using something legal to do something illegal there will always be someone who will exploit it.

Chris Moorehead

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Chris Moorehead wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    > > says... Â Â Â Â <i><font size=-2 color=darkgreen>> This is very interesting. I have
    > > looked for the original source of this article</font></i> Â Â Â Â <i><font size=-2
    > > color=darkgreen>> that was posted. And everywhere its just a link some one else
    > > posted. Does any one</font></i> Â Â Â Â <i><font size=-2 color=darkgreen>> have
    > > _any_ idea exactly where this newspaper is?</font></i> Check our the Urban
    > > Legends Reference page (http://www.snopes2.com/http://www.snopes2.com) & search
    > > for "Barry Loudermilk". Chris
    > > --
    > > CHRISTOPHER J. MOOREHEAD Durham, NC [email protected] "In Dr. Johnson's
    > > famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With
    > > all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit
    > > that it is the first." -- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
    >
    > That piece is NOT the Sinclair piece. Perhaps you should check it out.
    >
    > Rete

I was referring to the piece that started the whole thread (LIVING IN AMERICA), which
was written by Barry Loudermilk. The Sinclair piece is the one at the
www.americanmemorials.com site referenced in another post. Both pieces are listed on
the Urban Legends Reference site, though.

I did make one error -- the Sinclair piece was written in 1973, not 1972.

Chris

--
CHRISTOPHER J. MOOREHEAD Durham, NC [email protected]

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the
final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and
are not clothed." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1953

gardencity

Absolutely the right mindset

Kudos to you, Jenney. If only more Americans, or for the same matter, citizens of any country, think like you.

This will make America, and the whole world, a BETTER place, a BETTER backyard, for one and all.

Gardencity

gardencity

Clear level-headed thinking. Great!

Laws are not changed by immigrants, or asked to be changed...rather, as immigrants, they are merely displaying their usual way of living.

As for the 'lady and the photo', it amazes me how American lawmaker(s) would 'change' the law to accommodate her 'uniqueness' as doing so poses risks and problems to other Amreicans (immigrants or otherwise).

After all, what is an ID if one cannot see the face? the make-up of the various facial feature?

Gardencity

Rete

The author of this letter is contradicting himself.

The United States IS a melting pot . To say that American culture is in danger of being destroyed through "tainting" by other cultures is ludicrous. Rather, the current, existing American culture is enriched by each new introduction of another culture and/or language.

~ Jenney [/B]

But that is the whole point. They are not assimilating themselves or their cultures into the fabric of American Society. They are deliberately keeping themselves away from American Society and developing enclaves of their own "former" society within the borders of the US. In essence they have chosen to oblivate the American culture by ignoring its existence and refusing to merge with a country they choose to use for their financial and political gain.

Rete

Matta Harri

In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
(Samantha) wrote:
    > I am not mandating any rule here, I am just asking that you use English in the
    > correct usage. You seem to fail to demonstrate the correct usage of the official
    > language of the US, something you should be familiar with. Basic punctuation
    > having been taught in grade schools in the US. Yet, you seem to have problems
    > with immigrants who have the same problems as yourself. I am sure you see the
    > irony here.
    >
I'll use my English any way I darned well please. In our FWIW column, I was the
salutatorian of a high school class of about 140 people. I scored 99%-tile on the ACT
in English, and had a 97% overall on my ACT test. I have a 3.99 GPA in college. Make
no mistake, dearie, i know my english, and I can speak it when I want to. It is my
choice to speak it the way I want here, and whether you like it or not is
inconsequential to me.

I have no problems with immigrants and their language difficulties. I meet them all
the time. I try to make them feel welcome to our country.

However, I do believe with all honesty that every immigrant owes it to
himself/herself to learn english AND to speak it at home. My great-great-grandfather
was a poor German immigrant who arrived in the US penniless. He told his family, "We
are Americans now, and we will speak English." He allowed no one to speak German.

If everyone had that kind of ethic, we would have a much more unified country, which
IMHO is one of the more severe problems we experience in this day and time.

So stick that in your craw and chew on it. I don't give a
confounded-fillaramic-packaloomer-dirty-ricklefrats what you think of my english.

matta

gardencity

Status-quo is a state that humans are more inclined towards. Hence, if possible, immigrants tend to 'stick to same' be it, routine, way of life, whatever.

Also, immigrants are assimiliating 'birds of the same feather flocking together'.

Other angles to look at it, perhaps, as far as I can conjecture, are that:

-there are differences (language, colour, culture, etc) which are INITIAL barriers of communication. yet try as some might, they can never truely 'gel' for many reasons

-some immigrants feel inferior or second-class, hence, staying within one's own enclave does not make the 'inferiority' sink further down south

While I am not advocating who/what is right or wrong, compassion and tolerance will go a long way towards bridging gaps.

IMHO, i.e.

Rete

Compassion and tolerance are well and good. However, when does one stop being tolerant and start expecting an immigrant to show acceptance of their new home country?

Case in point were my grandparents and mother. My grandparents were Polish and migrated to the US in the 1860's. Yes my father is 86 and born in 1915. He was the tenth of 13 children. They settled into what was considered the Polish/Ukraine area of the city. Other areas of the city were divided into the Italian, Germany, Irish, etc. sections. From the memories of my father, his family remained in "their" section but both his mother and father dealt with merchants in English and both worked. My grandfather was a foreman at Otis Elevator and my grandmother did laundry and housecleaning. My father was not taught the Polish language at home nor were his brothers and sisters. It must have been difficult for my grandparents who migrated here only knowing their native language.

My mother, a German national, married my father after WWII. She only knew curse words in English. Words learned from listening to the soldiers. Within six months of coming to the US she attended night school to learn to speak, read and write English. German was never spoken in our home and neither my sister nor I know either of our ancestors languages. My went on to become a US Citizen as soon as law provided. Her motto was "I live in America, I speak English."

To me, that is what being an immigrant is. You have chosen this country as your adopted country. You become part of it. Although you cherish your ancestory, you adapt yourself and your famly to where you have chosen to live. As a German, Christmas Eve is more important and Christmas Day and celebrated as such. Easter is the holiest of holidays because of Polish tradition.

Perhaps others might think I'm wrong but I have little patience for new immigrants who refuse to adapt. No one forced them to migrate to the US. It was their choice. My daughter has a friend who is Japanese, Chemi. Chemi has lived in the US since the age of 5. She is now in her 30's. Her parents, her mother in particular, cannot speak more than hello and goodbye in English after 30 years. She only associates with other Japanese. These are the migrants I find intolerable and for whom I have no compassion. And yet I have friends from Ireland and Italy who adapted to their new country. They speak the language of this country at home and have chosen to become US citizens. They, to my way of thinking, have followed in the footsteps of the millions of immigrants who came to this country before them.

Rete

Just Jenney

Two points:

1) Using the word "they" connotates generalizations, which is always a dangerous thing to do. Do you honestly think that ALL immigrants "are not assimilating themselves"? That ALL immigrants -- each and every one -- "are deliberately keeping themselves away from American society"? I doubt it.

The influence of immigrants is integrated into American culture all the time. Just think of all the little ways that our culture has been modified to include things introduced from all over the world. For instance, the growing interest in practices such as Zen Buddhism, acupuncture and feng shui. The huge popularity of Mexican foods and massive numbers of Chinese restaurants all over the country. The increasing number of people signing up for martial arts classes. These things didn't just magically "appear" in American culture; they were introduced and integrated into it. They are considered as much a part of American culture today as rock-and-roll.

So, as for your statement, "They are not assimilating themselves or their cultures into the fabric of American Society" -- what I described above is EXACTLY THAT -- an assimilation of immigrant cultures into the fabric of American society.

2) It is naive to think that the ONLY reason immigrants "develop enclaves of their own 'former' society" is because they are "ignoring [the] existence [of American culture]". I think this couldn't be further than the truth.

There are exceptions, but the American population as a whole DOES NOT tend to embrace immigrants with open arms, welcoming them like new members to the family, and offering acceptance of and patience with any cultural and/or linguistic differences. Having grown up in an area with immigrants representing just about every place on earth -- Washington, DC -- I have witnessed the exact opposite time and again. More often than not, immigrants are met with apathy and indifference, at best, from their American neighbors. (Immigrants who are "not really foreign" -- ie, from the UK, Ireland, Australia, South Africa, etc. -- fair much better.)

Having said that, I think it is reasonable to expect people to want to be around others who understand their language, their cultural traditions, choice of clothing style and, most importantly, understand what it's like to be an immigrant. Their American-born neighbors aren't usually so understanding, accepting, tolerant, patient or forgiving.

Another reason is economics. It seems that most immigrant enclaves tend to be in the poorer sections of town. People who, due to economic limitations, are forced to live only in certain areas are much less likely to interact with people from other (read: wealthier) areas. This is despite whether the person is an immigrant or native-born American. Just ask any inner-city American kid if he's ever been invited to the pool party of a middle-classed classmate. Throw in cultural and linguistic differences, and the chances are even slimmer. As much as we Americans like to say classism doesn't exist here, it does.

Trying to assimilate and become part of American society is MUCH harder than it looks, and laying the blame solely on the immigrant's shoulders is close-minded, naive and unfair. They have a lot of obstacles placed before them, and not all of them are within their control -- such as whether their American neighbors will welcome and help them to become part of American society.

If Americans truly want a "pure" American society, they need to reach out to immigrants and assist them in assimilating, rather than turning their backs and then moaning that immigrants aren't trying. However, I think that our culture and society as we know it would become rather dull and uninspiring if that were to happen.

~ Jenney

Just Jenney

I would just like to give my input as a former immigrant myself -- an American immigrant to the South American country of Chile.

I have always been very respectful of cultural differences and was determined not to close myself off to the Chilean people and culture. I did not want to have only American friends. But you know what? It's A LOT harder than you'd think. I didn't know anyone in Chile when I arrived -- Chilean or American -- so in a sense I was starting from scratch. But it was very hard to "merge" into Chilean society. Why?

One was language. I could speak Spanish relatively well, but Chileans speak very fast and tend to blend their words together, dropping off consonants and such. I had a very difficult time understanding them (and I was a Spanish major in college). It was also extremely difficult to pick up on the slang; it took me months to figure out what "¿Cómo estaí?" and "¡Ya pó!" meant. Unfortunately, all my years in Spanish classes didn't prepare me for the slang and dialect I'd encounter. People would get frustrated trying to talk with me, because it was tough to have a fluid conversation, so they were reluctant to try. The catch-22 is, talking with locals is the best way to learn the language and dialect.

Another was discrimination. It was very subtle, but it was there, and presented an obstacle which was difficult to get over. Chileans (like most other people) have stereotypes of Americans, what we're "supposed" to be like, a sort of inherent distrust and suspicion that we all think we're better than everyone else. That made it difficult to meet people, because as soon as they found out I was American, all these assumptions jumped up, and in order to gain their trust and friendship, I had to prove that these assumptions weren't true. Having to do this once or twice is one thing; having to do it repeatedly is quite another.

Meanwhile, other Americans there were often in the same boat that I was. They longed to talked to people who didn't assume that they were arrogant or fake. It was a relief to finally be able to hold a normal, fluid conversation with someone without having to make sure you were being understood, because we were both speaking English. It was also nice to be able to celebrate things like Thanksgiving and the 4th of July with people who appreciated their importance -- even though they were part of our home culture and we were celebrating them in another country.

Most Americans I knew were expats working for huge multinational corporations (I knew a lot of people from Coca-Cola), who lived in HUGE homes with a live-in maid and chauffeured car. They had all the luxuries (and then some) of being at home in the States -- satellite tv meant never missing football games, imported foods meant having meals like they were used to. They interacted mostly with other Americans and got special stipends to travel home for visits every couple of months.

In my case, I didn't live in an "American enclave" or have a lifestyle even remotely like my American friends'. I lived in a very modest house, with no car, no maid and no tv (and no washing machine for the first year; washed them in the tub), and was the only American on my street. As an English teacher, I earned only $500/month. My neighbors kept their distance. If I said "hola" it was greeted by a reluctant response and a peculiar stare. The only time my neighbors showed any interest in me was when my dog was stolen and they saw the flyers all over the place. While I had more Chilean friends than American friends, they had all spent time living in either the US or Canada during the dictatorship, so had some clue about my cultural background.

Despite my best efforts to integrate myself into Chilean society -- I respected Chilean culture, ate Chilean foods, spoke Spanish with Chilean friends and strangers, participated in Chilean traditions and holidays -- it was much, much harder than I had anticipated. I didn't realize how hard immigrants to the United States had it until I became an immigrant myself -- and I had a lot more advantages going for me than, say, someone from a tiny village in Guatemala trying to make it in New York. Despite my efforts, I was always an immigrant -- I never felt embraced as part of Chilean society. I am an American, and I cannot deny that -- any more than that Guatemalan can deny where he's from and who he is.

As the saying goes, "You have to walk a mile in someone's shoes to understand him..."

~ Jenney

Patrick

The subject now seems to be expat communes rather than the original subject - and the English/British can't condone others for doing it as we do it too. You go anywhere in America where there is a large British expat presence and you will find Sunday Leagues, cricket leagues and British pubs serving british beer. I know where I can get Boddingtons in most American cities and last time I was in Dallas I found a place that served Abbots Ale (an East Anglian delight). My Scottish friend manages to get Irn Bru and most expats I know have nevered suffered withdrawals from Marmite, Twiglets, HP or English Mustard. As Brits we are almost there as far american culture is concerned - its not as big a leap for us as it is for other nationalities but still parts of America will forever be English/British.

God save the Queen!

Blackpool for promotion!

Lisa & Erik

I'm pretty late jumping in on this thread and have only read a few of the posts, so
pardon if someone else from Orlando has jumped in and clarified.

First off, it's not a hoax. This was in Orlando(check Orlando Sentinal archives, not
Florida Sentinal) and it created quite a hoo ha here. It's been quite a few months
now, but here's what I remember. This woman is an American, been an American her
whole life, and has only recently adopted Muslim as her new religion. She is not an
immigrant, she just felt the need for a new license in her new religious garments was
in order. The DL office she went to in Winter Park is by far the busiest and most
understaffed in the surrounding counties. This is the office I'm forced to use and I
would venture to say it's worse than the INS Orlando. If I remember correctly, when
she went to get her first license she implied that she was from somewhere else, now
naturalized and a devout Muslim. It's a miserable office on most days and I could see
them wanting to shuffle people out as quick as possible, hence I can see why the
license was mistakenly issued in the first place.

A few of the news stations here interviewed her & her husband and they seemed like a
couple of crackpots. They were on their own little planet and were REALLY strange,
almost like they had a lot to hide. They adopted Muslim around a year ago and now
feel like they can use any religious excuse to not follow the laws all other citizens
have to abide by here. I support freedom of religion, but not when it means breaking
the rules and laws everyone else has to abide by.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Lisa

"Samantha" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Again. To clarify, by original story, I mean the orginal story that was posted to
    > start this thread. It began as follows:
    >
    > "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about
    > whether we are offending some individual or their culture."
    >
    > I do _not_ see this story in the archives or any other newspaper. I now believe
    > this above story to be a hoax.
    >
    > Matta, you said:
    >
    > "Free exercise of religion does not include violation of the law."
    >
    > Since the Floridian woman did have her picture taken as granted by the State of
    > Florida. I don't see how and where she violated any law here.
    >
    > "If the law specifies a picture, then I think she should obey it."
    >
    > Which she did, she had her picture taken.
    >
    > "For instance, what if I said that my religion demands that I kill someone every
    > week? Would you think that should be honored by the court? didn't think so."
    >
    > Actually, there is this weird inconsistent mixture of patriotism and Christianity
    > which does call for the death of people all the time. The people who follow this
    > mixture are called soldiers. This _is_ infact "honored by the court(s)". Many
    > people who were American citizens _did_ go to jail for refusing to kill people
    > (Think Vietnam).
    >
    > Furthermore, one cannot make laws to override the constitution (I should mention
    > again, that this Floridian woman did _not_ break any laws here. I should also
    > mention again, I fail to see the original story).
    >
    > "I'll punctuate when and where I please, I have the right to free speechTESTyou
    > seem to have forgotten this constitutional right."
    >
    > You seem to be very confused about certain meanings, and I will take it upon myself
    > to re-educate you.
    >
    > "Free Speech - The right to express any opinion in public without censorship or
    > restraint by the government."
    >
    > I am not mandating any rule here, I am just asking that you use English in the
    > correct usage. You seem to fail to demonstrate the correct usage of the official
    > language of the US, something you should be familiar with. Basic punctuation
    > having been taught in grade schools in the US. Yet, you seem to have problems
    > with immigrants who have the same problems as yourself. I am sure you see the
    > irony here.
    >
    > -Samantha

jcsutton

You've hit the nail on the head Jenny. Once, this country encouraged it's immigrants to assimilate into the larger society (consider the mass migration of the early 1900's and the governmental policies that went with it), today we do not. Immigrants not of a specific skin color are treated with disdain by a consevative government and by society as a whole. Something else to consider though is the fact that the Italians, Irish, Poles, etc...formed their own enclaves when they came to this country nearly 100 years ago which in many ways endure to this day. It took decades for these people to fully integrate into American society including the phasing out of the home language. Were they bad immigrants too?? I think not. Assimilation does not happen over night and needs to be facilitated by an enlightened government. Too bad we have just the opposite these days.

Jerry