veryfunny

Hello everyone
I have a question in regards to the US education system. I plan to move over to the states from the UK as soon as the INS give me my papers. I have a BSc Hons degree and have worked for about 6yrs. I would like to go to Law school but I do not fully understand the US education system.

In the UK there is LLB,LLM and LLD. In the states there is LLM and JD. Would I be correct in stating this and my question is after taking the LSAT and getting the acceptable grade would I be admitted to study for a LLM or is there something I am missing here.

Thanks in advance.

Rete

In order to attend law school you need to have a bachelor's degree and have a good grade on the LSATs. You would have to see if your university degrees are the equivalent of a US BS/BA and if not then take the missing credits and then the LSAT and apply for Law School for a JD.

gpc

The J.D. (juris doctorate) is the degree you receive upon finishing the three-year law school program. Some law schools may still call it an L.L.B (bachelor of legal letters), but that terminology has been phased out almost completely over the past 20 years or so.

The L.L.M. is essentially a master's degree in law, and is bestowed upon completing a one-year program (typically involving intensive research and a thesis in a specialised area of the law). Lawyers with a J.D. or the foreign equivalent thereof are eligible to apply for entry into an L.L.M. program.

Duncs

If you wish to practice as an attorney and i assume you do then every state has different rules. Normally though an english BA/BSc equivalent and a JD from an American Bar Association law school will suffice to qualify you to read the bar exam in whatever state you want to practice in. An LL.M is no help towards this and is really for those intending a career in academic law teaching. If you have a Bsc now then you will need to get a JD which is a 3 year degree from a usa law school which is ABA approved.

The LSAT isnt a pass or fail test it is simply a test of aptitude for law study and trust me its damn hard. I have practiced as a barrister for 6 years and have an LL.M and i took the LSAT in Feb and got a 160 which is top 17% but frankly was a big disappointment as i wanted top 10%. Lots of practice is needed for the LSAT and i would not advise only a 1 weeks boning up before the exam because hey i am already a lawyer right! Once you have a score then based upon your Grade Point average as an undergrad you need to figure out which schools to apply to. GPA equiv i was advised as a rule of thumb is say mid 2:2 = GPA 3.25 low 2:1= 3.5 and high 2:1 / 1 = 3.75- 4.0. This is approx and different colleges have diff systems. (this formula came from a friend who was an admissions officer at harvard and had experience in dealing with UK degrees). So once you have an LSAT score and a GPA equiv work out a list of colleges you have shot at and apply. schools vary a lot and it is hard to pick, status matters in law and some collegs have national rep some more local, if you know where you wnat to live and practice then the local state school may do it and be cheaper, on the other hand if you want national reps then its th big boys like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, who are top of the pile but you will need an LSAT in the 165+ and a GPA of 3.75 to have any chance in these places. I helped negotiate the Good Friday agreement(in a small way anyhow) and have practiced for 6 years and have an LL.M and i got rejected by Harvard twice. Though thats probably me but i would say it is pretty tough ( a usa class mate of mine from LL,M class had a 4.0 and a 165 and she got rejected as well). Though if its your dream then go for it as you never know.

The one other big handicap of not being american is that the computerised application system called LSDAS wont let you register if your undergrad work is not USA based. This means you must make paper applications to every college directly and that means 2 sealed confidential recommendations, transcripts, deans recommendations etc for every single one. i am working on getting around 12 organised for next year so i need 36 letters of recommendation(3 people), 24 transcripts(2 universitys) etc its a real pain. If i could computer register you do it once and they replicate it for you. so you may find that the hassle limits how many colleges you can apply to.

I have myself been getting info about different schools and generally a british degree is ok and they dont seem too worried about extra credits from my experience. You will probaly need to get a accreditatation done from a US based firm the one most schools accept is World Education Services in New York http://www.wes.org/.

Lastly note that the system is mostly private and the good schools are generally private ones so they charge market rates this means tuition fees are approx $29,000 per year so its not cheap to attend law school and expect to be in debt by $60,000+ by the time you finsh your 3 years.

Ok i hope that helps and good luck on your plans,

regards,

Duncan

sk686

If you already have an LLB from a non-US Law School, you can apply for an LLM. Some top US Law schools like Georgetown, Duke and NYU, offer LLM programs for foreign educated lawyers. They can sit for the State Bar exams after completing the LLM.

As an example, Attorney Sheela Murthy (www.murthy.com), has her first degree in Law from India. She did not do a JD in the USA, rather she did an LLM from Harvard. She is now one of the top Immigration Lawyers in the US.

Also, the LSAT is not required in some top US Law schools for LLM admission.

If you already have an LLM, you can apply for an LLM instead of a JD.

_________________________________________

Ray

Just what America needs, more lawyers, can the Yellow pages cope..

Duncs

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An LL.M on its own does not qualify you to sit the Bar in any state that i have checked up on. Only if you already have a number of years of legal practice already will an LL.M then allow you to read the Bar in the abscence of a JD.Washington DC requires 5 years+ LL.M, Texas 3 + LL.M and so on. If you have an LL.B then New York will alllow you to qualify on that basis and if you are already a called lawyer in another jurisdiction then so will California but thats is about it.

The poster says he has a Bsc so he would need to do the JD as he would not qualify for a LL.M course. I have looked at it and decided to go down the JD route because it allows me to read the Bar in a larger number of states and i ultimately hope to go to Massachusetts which requires a JD ( ihave checked with the board of bar examiners).


yes for an LL.M application the LSAT is not required only for JD applications.

regards,

Duncan

veryfunny

Thanks alot for the input, so really I have to go through another 3 yrs degree course to practise law.

$60,000 + is alot of debt to accumulate this is really a uphill struggle.

Duncs

Yes its not an easy choice and you need to be pretty sure that its what you want. $60,000 is an estimate based upon the average debt figures of students currently leaving the top 20 law schools. If the cost is worrying then remember that state college is cheaper generally maybe $17,20,000 per year aand in some states if you are certifed as a resident you get a discount this varies and requirements to prove residence varyas well. but Ole Miss in Mississippi charges around $6,000 per year for a state resident. University of Texas around $12,000. Those i found out because my wifes family are from down there. so dont let cost stop you. If you only really want to be a competent lawyer in a smaller state making a living then a smaller state school is fine and in their own states they have better reputations. If you want big bucks on Wall Street then ideally you need top ten and thats expensive. But remember if you succed the average starting salary in the big boys is around $110,000 per annum so its all relative. but its a risk beacuse if things go bad then you have lots of debts, but hey lifes a challenge.

regards,

Duncan

Duncs

I was looking again at your first post you said you have filed for an I-129? thats a non immigrant visa and that would make going to law school a lot harder. Your visa status is dependant on what you are doing, if you became a full time student on a student visa you would lose work privilages and could not work, also you will not qualify for any federal financial aid in the form of student loans and most private loans require a perm resident or US citizen co signature. So rasing the money would be tough as well unless you manage to get perm resident status.

regards,

Duncan

veryfunny

Duncan,

I plan to get married this year to my American wife so first I have to sort out all the papers. Secondly, after your kind advice I will have to work for some time to save up enough so that I can go to law school. I work in the Biotech/pharmaceutical field so if all things go well I should be able to get a job over there once I am there.


Finally,
Thanks for the work you did on the Good friday agreement you have help and saved alot of lives even though you may not think so.

veryfunny

The yelloW pages loves Lawyers lol lol.

sk686

Does it have to be US experience? Or foreign experience also counts?


I just spoke to the Massachusetts Board of Bar Examiners (http://www.state.ma.us/bbe/), and they didn't say, not having a US JD outright disqualifies you from sitting in the Massachusetts Bar Examination. Rather they deal with it on a case by case basis.

There are more details here:

http://www.state.ma.us/bbe/BarAppRulesAug2002.pdf

These are quotes from the Massachusetts Rules Pertaining to the Admission of Attorneys:

3.1 High School. Each applicant for admission by examination shall have been graduated from a public day high school or its equivalent, or shall have received the equivalent education in the opinion of the Board.

3.2 College. Each applicant shall have completed the work acceptable for a bachelor's degree in a college or university, or have received an equivalent education in the opinion of the Board.

3.3 Law School. Each applicant shall have graduated with a degree of bachelor of laws or juris doctor from a law school which, at the time of graduation, is approved by the American Bar Association or is authorized by statute of the Commonwealth to grant the degree of bachelor of laws or juris doctor.

3.4 Foreign Law Schools. Any applicant who received his/her legal education at a law school located outside any state, district, or territory of the United States shall have pre-legal education equivalent, in the Board's opinion, to that set forth in subsections 3.1 and 3.2 and legal education equivalent, in the Board's opinion, to that provided in law schools approved by the American Bar Association. Before permitting such an applicant to take the law examination, the Board in its discretion may, as a condition to such permission, require such applicant to take such further legal studies as the Board may designate at a law school
approved by the American Bar Association.

They also told me the person you can get more details on this is:

Mr. Robert J. Muldoon, Jr.
77 Franklin Street
Boston, MA 02110
Phone: (617) 482-4466
Fax: (617) 542-5943

Although, you are right, some states like Georgia, outright require a US ABA-approved JD, to sit for their State bar.

This may be more a political thing, than an academic one.

Here are some interesting perspectives:

http://www.malet.com/myweb/strict_ab...chool_degr.htm

Here is more on the The LL.B. & US State Bar Educational Eligibility:

http://www.malet.com/myweb/london_ll.htm

The American Bar Association (ABA) also lists Massachusetts as one of the States that allow lawyers with Foreign degrees admission in their jurisdiction. Although they may require them to take some additional courses in an ABA-approved Law School. In many cases, that requirement can be fulfilled by doing an LLM. Since, LLM students in many cases sit and take the same classes that US JD students do.

Here is the ABA information on Foreign Law School Graduates:

http://www.abanet.org/legaled/public...ide/chart9.pdf

Bar Admission Rules and Foreign Lawyers: U.S. State Barriers Challenged in a Global Economy:

http://www.malet.com/Bar%20Admission..._foreign_1.htm

Some top schools like Stanford require the LSAT even for the LLM, while some other top schools do not.

To become a Barrister in the UK, did you have to take the Bar Vocational Course (BVC), and become a member of one of the Inns of Courts of Law (like Lincoln's Inn, or Gray's Inn)? If so, that in itself is some serious legal education and training!

_________________________________________

Dekka's Angel

You're not counting the private law schools. Not the top ones, anyhow.

The total cost of my personal law degree at Stanford was $64,000. *13* years ago.

Anecdotally (based on the Stanford students that I taught between 1998 and 2001), the current average debt load for top tier (Stanford, Harvard, Yale) private law school - in excess of $100,000 for the three year program.

veryfunny

I guess I am just going to have to save up a great deal before I can go to law school then.

So you went to Standford I believe that is in NJ, so do you have any words of encouragement on your profession? any good stories to share?