dudleydowg

Reported today is that US bound British carriers are wanting armed undercover air marshalls but the pilots union don't want arms onboard British aircraft, what a crock of shit, personally I would welcome the knowledge that there is a highly trained weapons expert flying with me in these troubled times, my wife and I are flying out on Thurs and she is already apprehensive about the recent elevated alert.
Air France are already getting twitchy about thier flights and united have given thier rear gunners new ammo ( only one class on united, steerage)

Pimpbot

With all the checks in place at the airports, why the hell do we need a guy with a gun on an aeroplane?. Thats just what I look forward to, a gun fight at 36,000 feet

RoB1833

I've done airport work for a number of years and know how easy it would be to smuggle something on a plane. Having said that I have to agree with Pimbot on this one.

edwords

If I were on a hijacked plane, I would certainly appreciate the presence of an armed law enforcement official, particularly in light of the fact that I can't even carry a nail file onto a plane these days.
BTW, air marshals use soft, low velocity bullets that are designed not the penetrate the plane's skin. But even if that weren't true, I'd rather that the plane go down with a fight and perhaps save some innocent lives on the ground.
Of course, I'm also in favor of armed pilots. Why not? Most are retired Air Force officers anyway.

sibsie

I've just been having this debate with my other half who's a pilot for a major US carrier. He's pro marshalls but anti armed pilots. He's ex military himself but the majority are no means ex mil and it's a pretty even split. He said a lot of the pilots are just too geeky to be armed in the cockpit.

Patrick

I agree with armed air marshals, it will make the terrorists job easier when they identify the marshal disarm him and use the gun to hijack the plane. This is really good as it means the terrorists don't need to go to the trouble of trying to get weapons on board as they are put on for them.

It will make the extra security and the fact that flying is such a pain in the arse now much better knowing that the ground security is for nought because there is a gun ready and waiting on the plane. By telling people that there are armed air marshals on flights it will stop people being vigilante and looking for things out of place and thus make the terrorists job easier.

The whole terror alert thing is such a good use of tax payers money as well, it does the terrorists job for them - scares people.

This whole thing over Christmas is such a crock of shit anyway, nothing is going to happen and Bush is going make himself a hero because he stopped the terrorist attacks(?!?!)


If your afraid to fly because of terrorism don't ****ing fly, personally I think that if the terrorists want to do something they will find a way to do it and there will be very little anyone can do about. Its called terrorism for a reason, otherwise it would be called predetermonable and preventable ism!

Patrick

edwords

So, to go by your logic, police officers shouldn't use firearms because a criminal may take the gun away and shoot innocent bystanders. The mind boggles.
Incidentally, hijackers don't have to sneak weapons onto a plane, there are many everyday items that may be used to take over an aircraft. An armed marshal may not be a 100 percent countermeasure, but he or she could be of great assistance and may not even have to use his or her weapon.

bondipom

Pimpbot that happens. Must be fun for a Marshall being sat down for up to 14 hours at a time. Great for physical training necesary for being able to tackle a would be terrorist.

The US is thinking of requiring foreign airlines to carry marshalls on flights to America.

IATA and BALPA also think air marshalls are inneffective and possibly a liability.

The best use of resources is gathering quality intelligence. Something that might have prevented 9/11.

Anyway you are all far more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the airport. Will you let that stop you picking up friends and family from the airport?

Pollyana

I don't know about the US, but in the UK the majority of airline pilots are not retired military flyers. A vast number of them have no desire to carry or use a firearm; if they did they would not be flying a civilian airliner, they would be in a more appropriate job.
Every time they fly they have to be focussed on the flight, the numerous safety aspects, the needs of air traffic, and the requirements of their company. Asking them to now be responsible for carrying, and being ready to use, firearms is unacceptable.
I would rather be able to feel that the pilots of my plane were concentrating on the flight, than feel that they were sitting in the cockpit nursing loaded firearms.
Maybe if it was a requirement for new pilots, now in training, it could be considered, but as things stand at present its impractical and unworkable.

As for air marshals - would the flight crew know who the marshal was? Would the cabin crew? If the pilots don't know who the marshal is, how do they know which guy to shoot when they come racing out of the cockpit, gun on hand......

sibsie

Yes they do know who the marshall is. Marshalls have been randomly onboard domestic US flights for some time. If you've taken domestic US flights within the last two years or so, chances are there has been an air marshall on your flight.

If the pilots were armed they would never, under any circumstances leave the cockpit. It's seen as the last line of defence and they are trained to only use the weapon if someone gained entry.

As it stands now, the pilot's only job is to safely land the plane. That's all they are required to do, with or without the presence of an air marshall.

Air Marshalls have also very sucessfully been used on El Al for years.

I think what is happening with the situation now is more of a load of political rhetoric than anything else.

DaveC

As far as I know, the airlines aren't forcing pilots to be armed. It depends on the individual. I have a friend who's a pilot for American and is a gun enthusiast. He qualified recently as an air marshall after an intensive course. I think he volunteered almost as soon as the program was announced but it has taken a while for the authorities to set up the training. On the other hand, another pilot for American who we know wouldn't touch guns with your bargepole.

NC Penguin

Forget about who's going to be armed. What about the terrorists, the people who'd be armed and ready to shoot.

Do you think they'd bother to arm themselves with low velocity bullets so they don't puncture the plane's skin?





NC Penguin

Patrick

No, your absolutley right, if a criminal in a city doesn't have a gun he can take one from a policeman, not that a criminal in a big city won't have a gun anyway. But if a policeman lost his gun he can call for backup - who the **** is going to help 36000 feet.

In America police have to be armed because the criminals are armed. On board an airplane why would you need a gun? It seems to me that you would get one person to be a decoy to identify the air marshal and use others to then overpower the airmarshal. Makes complete sense, the safest thing to do is not to have a gun up there in the first place.

Patrick

Patrick

Just what we need rednecks in the sky, you will be able to tell the armed pilots by the flag of dixy on the rear of the plane!

Patrick

Manc

Hypothetical newsflash

A Boeing 767 Airtours jet from Gatwick to Las Vegas exploded in mid-air today off the coast of Iceland.
Wreckage on-site indicated a 400lb semtex bomb in the hold exploded at 37000 ft and disintergrated the plane instantaneously.
Luckily everyone survived because the air marshall was on board.

This incident is similar to the Airbus A320 Air New Zealand flight that slammed full pelt into Mount Fuji last year.
Everyone survived as they were wearing their flimsy nylon seatbelts and had adopted the foetuslike crash position.





the moral of the story. Put air marshalls on there if you want. They'll find another way to piss on our parade.