Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

One is aged 14 I think - fairly imminent.
Dan seems like a thoughtful fellow. This is a huge step, quite honestly it's about more than the price of a loaf of bread.

Dan and family:

Is it a really great career move? Then it might be worth the slog.

What improvement are you seeking in your life? Could it be achieved with a less drastic move?

How do wife your and kids feel about it? How will you deal with the possibility of some family members not liking their new home?

Just some things to think about, not expecting you to tell me.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

We have a fairly big house in Southern Maine near Portland, so probably a similar climate to Dover.

Oil heat - $3-4,000 a year but we just put in a gas boiler (cost $12k) so we're hoping overall to see the monthly bills a fair bit lower
Elec - $180 a month but about to fall because we got rid of the electric water heater
Internet - $50 a month
TV - we don't have cable so it's about $5 for Unotelly and $8 for Netflix
Property tax - $580 a month but we live in a high tax area, I have friends in smaller houses paying more like $280 a month (if you rent this will be included)
Water - $20 a month
Car insurance - about $1500 a year for two cars
Petrol - about $200-300 a month
Car maintenance - I allow $200 a month but we once got a bill for $2700 to fix a 2 year old car
Car tax - $650 a year for two cars, one fairly new
In winter we pay about $35 per storm for ploughing, so it can be anything up to $700 a year - we have a long driveway and share the cost with a neighbour.
Trash pickup - $25 a month
Groceries - about $1,000 a month but we don't do school dinners so a lot of that is bread. I make most meals from scratch.
Health insurance currently around $12,000 a year but we're on COBRA and will switch next year, then we'll be on DH's company insurance which will be more like $10,000 a year (with a much bigger deductible).

I do think it's worth having studded snow tyres but I haven't bothered with 4WD and we've done fine. They do plough pretty quickly round here.

You can definitely cut your costs a lot by living in a small house - your rent, property tax, heating, and elec bills are likely to be much lower. It's hard to cut the costs of running a car IME.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Oh a few more costs...
Cellphone - we went for the AT&T family plan, we have five lines and it's about $180 a month including 10Gb of shared data, unlimited calls and texts.
House insurance just came in at $1,400 for the year
When I worked I probably spent about $7-8,000 a year on after-school and holiday care for 3 kids (they're all in school).
We ski so that adds up but we do it as cheap as possible (ie we go to cheap resorts, get Groupons, ski Sunday afternoon b/c it's cheap, buy all the gear secondhand at ski swaps, etc)
Son plays soccer so that's about $100 a season, then baseball in summer which is cheaper than that
Kids used to do things like gymnastics which could be $20 a session but we've cut out all expensive sports for now

One difference for us from the UK is that all school day trips are funded by the PTA. We also don't get asked much for money for school things, but we did spend about $150 on stationery at the start of the school year for three kids (could have cut that back but I didn't keep a close enough eye on them in Target).

I find clothes and shoes here very cheap compared to the UK.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Great post, thnx.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Again, thnx. I'll try to shift some of these to my cost breakdown table.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

To a fair degree rent and gas are inversely related, so you can live "in town", and spend less on gas, but the rent will be more, and vice versa.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

You're absolutely right. One word. Bacon.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Grocery stores love people like you, who rush in for the "loss leader" products but don't notice they're getting screwed for everything else. :rolleyes:

We stock up on milk and deli meats at BJ's, plus any coupon deals that we NEED (tissues, TP, laundry detergent), when we're passing, buy fresh fruit and vegetables at Kroger, and most of the rest comes from Walmart.

At BJ's we save $1+/gal on milk compared to anywhere, and save almost 50% on deli meats and salami compared to Kroger, and 25% compared to Walmart. If we bought, for example, soup at Kroger we would pay 30%-40% more for it than at Walmart. A half-decent loaf of bread (that doesn't taste sweet and/or have the consistency of cotton wool :sick: ) at BJ's nets us a similar discount as for deli meats (25%/50%).

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

yet another breakdown of costs, i think we are nearly there .... thanks for your input all :goodpost:

Summary:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- $ 900 groceries
- $ 200 car insurance - 2 cars
- $ 60 car tax
- $ 20 Umbrella Insurance
- $ 50 internet
- $ 50 tv
- $ 200 propane based heating / air conditioning (avg) 3 bedroom (~2000 sq./ft.)
- $ 150 electricity (avg / month) 5 people - 3 bedroom house (up to $200 - 250 month)
- $ 150 3 cell plans , including fixed line
- $ 250 (70c / litre / on avg 3050 km shared by 2 cars per month with avg 10l / 100km)
- $ 50 water (n/a if renting ? - avg / month)*
- $ 25 trash pickup *
- $2000 rent - 3 bedroom (~200 sq./ft.)
- $1000 medical insurance - ($300 to $1500) family of 5 depending on work based benefits (if any) and an income
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GT: $5105

Pointers:
* might be covered by rent
- get a job with medical insurance included,
- rent a house, with efficient / modern heating system preferably propane based - condo?,
- rent a house within (even small) city area, it would lower gas costs, sort out winters
- $35 per storm for ploughing, so it can be anything up to $700 a year - long driveway, cost shared with a neighbour.
{Oil heat - $3-4,000 a year fairly big house in Southern Maine near Portland}
{oil based NE - might be as much as about $600-800 per month from November-March, overall yearly 6K - 3,000 sq ft.}
{$1000 extra school spendings (in school and after school activities including sport related, holiday care)}

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Not really going to happen, not in Dover.

Plus you don't want to be realistically walking for more than a few minutes in winter.

Nor can you rely on the pavements being cleared to allow that.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Does the job you have been offered look like it will fit the bill? Or will you go anyway and look for something? As has been mentioned, if the latter, you will need money to tide you over.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

One thing that's not been accounted for, lack of US credit/driving history...which will mean usually higher costs for a couple years.

Deposits on utilities could be anything from nothing but most likely $50-600 a utility.

Rubbish collection, depending on where you live, could be town pick up, might have to use the dump, or town bag system, or rely on private pickup so it could be included in the rent, could be a couple bucks a bag or $30 a month.

The thing about PTA paying for school trips, best not to rely on it. Most schools aren't like that, but they can contribute if you're low income. Nice when they pay for trips though.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Someone once posted a Pet Peeve about the snowploughs piling snow up and blocking the pavements. I can't quite recall who posted it now. :rolleyes:

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

After following this thread i feel like running back back to the UK and leaving Alabama behind, sooooo damn scary re: costs :sarcasm:. To be honest i am glad i am retired and everything is in place now for the future, after 60 years in the UK i am not sorry to have made the move over here y'all :amen:

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

A couple of thoughts...

With all the standard deductions (of which basic income tax is only one) a gross of $75k to result in take home of $60k feels a tad low.

<gloomy mode>

The question was rhetorical, but it raises a thought. Living on the edge. I would allow a monthly 'saving' figure, for when something happens. Something will indeed happen, and if living on the edge that may put you the wrong side of things, and facing a potential downward spiral. As others have commented, there's really nothing in the way of social safety nets here. Do consider why this is a good move in terms of the family quality of life.

</gloomy mode>

Finally, I think the groupthink figures are ballpark okay, and probably include taxes, but bear in mind when simply comparing prices that in the UK the prices you see include VAT whereas over here the sticker prices are before sales tax is added.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

I think I'm good, at this point I'm accepted although I don't have a final contract on hands,
and I have just a range of a final salary from an initial offer however I will have to go with a
higher end in order to feel comfortable.

I will definitely ask for more if they decide to go with lower end. Having my wife work we should be
fine with whatever salary I would have gone with although as she's an civil engineer she will have to
start from scratch probably as a CAD draughtsperson / draftperson.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

How does she feel about that?

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Its an eye opener isn't it :ohmy: ?

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Take that back :eek: :thumbsup:

Are you a fellow Rochester expat?

Hoffage

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

What might be an eye-opener for you would be to ask your original question but for states between NC and Texas. Sure, you have to pay for AC (which in a worst case scenario will still be cheaper than oil heating for a house in New England), but you can rent a nice modern house for $1,000, get very little winter, petrol is cheaper, and the children will be wearing "summer" clothes for 8-9 months of the year. :)

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

You are still in the honeymoon period (in every meaning of the term!;)) and it is going to be a lot less expensive to live in Alabama than in the northeast.

OP, you ask how a low income family can survive in the US -- well just "surviving" is not what a Brit usually moves to the US for, so the members of the forum give you advice as to the cost needed to enjoy the kind of lifestyle that we believe you will expect. Many people are not so lucky as have grown up in a country with the kind of social safety nets that are available to us in the UK, and "surviving" in the US is, to them, a big step up. And to others, it is just what they have known their entire lives.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

And cheap entertainment - banjo playing.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Since you have asked ...

It's not about job itself, nor the money, i had been working in couple of places all over Europe, and believe me wherever you go to work
as an expirienced professional these days (I'm not talking about executives "fat wallet" type of folks) you are paid just about to
make ends meet, don't get me wrong, you still have good standard of living and some savings (you have to keep those for
retirement anyway) and just about it.


As far as I see US in no exception .... although even if you have a better paycheck you have to spend most of it anyway,
so at the end of the day there is no financial gain at all, albeit you are even more like prisoner of a system because you have to
deliver for those higher spendings, I don't like that at all ....

On the career side - work in US would definitely give the CV boost and good experience so that's positive - even if we would
go back to Europe at some point in time.

On the move - it was a family decision, 5 of us voted, before we went for Visa interview, although i must admit
the little ones were bribed with perspective of the Disneyworld trip :D .

BTW: It would't be our first overseas move ... so we know the drill.

I hope she's fine, she just said so, you never know whats there underneath {men talk}, though ...

I've been just slapped :D

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Well...I am a 'counterbalance'- type poster on here - look before you leap - but I wish you all the best with your plans.

You have moved around - that's good. Bear in mind the implications if you want to move back to Europe in the future but your kids don't.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Believe me, I'm trying to be prepared for everything, i read quite a good chunk of posts here, and I'm doing this research ....
apart of that, we are not on the plane as yet.

i have been to states (working) good couple of years back as well, I was young and it was almost different century :D,
I would imagine everything changed since then.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Yeah...it can be great...it's not just Disneyworld though.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Thankfully it's not all Disneyworld :amen: Haviing done that once:ohmy:

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

I really like living here, even though we live in the eye-wateringly expensive NYC 'burbs where everything is subjected to what I like to call the Shiny Fire Truck Tax[1].

Mind you, we've been lucky in that a) I work in an area that is very in demand right now, certainly in NYC and so I get to pull down the big bucks, and b) we managed to get a house that was an estate sale and needed some (but not a lot) of work and so got it for about 2/3 of what it's really worth.

So as everywhere, money talks, and if you can get a good balance of income vs expenditure to live comfortably, it's a great place to live.

But what I think people are trying to say to you is that if you can't make it work, there's really no safety net, especially if you have no family in the US who might be able to help if things go bad, and it can be a really shitty place to live if you're at the bottom of the heap.

Good luck!

[1] We have volunteer fire depts here and they operate the shiniest fire engines I've ever seen, about one vehicle for every 1,000 residents and they usually get a new one from the village every year or so. We also get two trash and one recycling pick-up a week and in consequence of these things and others, we pay in excess of a $1,000 a month property taxes!

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

The costs look eye-watering - but they have to be seen in the context of what household income ends up being for the middle class in this area of the northeast (presumably with you and your spouse eventually working you'll be at or above 100k in terms of household income which makes those costs livable).

Same goes for the south - yes the costs of living are considerably lower but wages are also correspondingly lower; it may be that the lower costs and lower wages cancel each other out.

This is a really good point. My wife has a huge family here in the North East and they have saved our bacon on several occasions. It would have been a lot harder settling here if there were no family around.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

I spent 3 years pond hopping before moving here at end of June 2014 (15 trips) so had pretty good idea of life here, sure ain't looked back yet :thumbsup: Lovely to sit out on the porch of an evening while the weather is still warm (except for skeeters) and being retired now i think i earnt it :amen:

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

NH is the "Live Free or Die" state :D

They don't have sales or income tax, so that simplifies things, but they make up for it on property tax. Still got federal income tax though.

It is a cracking part of the country though and lots of nice things for kids to do.

Just shit being broke over here, especially in the winter.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Another consideration, with a 14 year old would be uni. If there's any thoughts on studying in the UK, would need 3 years EU residence prior to starting to get home rates, which might not be massively different to international rates these days but the funding model sure is and being able to get a student loan and pay it off after you study and earning money is a lot easier than having to pay it up front in cash.

Though at 14, it's not easy to plan for of course, but it's another thing to keep in mind.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

People here are all, "It's £9,000 to send the kids to uni now, nightmare!" Yeah except you're not actually paying anything yet, while we're paying &12,900 upfront (and they sneaked the £900 on at the last minute).

Anyway, yes international fees if they come back to UK uni, 4 years min at a range of prices in US.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Following this post with interest. I carried out a similar exercise, allbeit not through this forum.

We are moving to Chicago - not a move instigated by us, so we are in a better bargaining position. They want us, they have to pay. One of the caveats we placed on the move was that we had to be financially and lifestyle better off if we were going to make such a major move.

Not sure how useful or accurate this website is, but this was my starting point Cost Of Living Comparison Between United States And United Kingdom

More useful have been friends already in the US (NYC, though) and conversations with future work colleagues.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

:lol: Just west of you in Buffalo! :)

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

That's quite interesting, obviously it's only a rough guide but still interesting. Says I'll be about 50% better off so that's better than going the other way :p worth a look OP.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

Having lived in ten states, and hired people in most of them, it is probably true for unskilled workers, but not for professionals.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

I want to add that I've been shopping at WalMart (started a few times in August and a few more in September) and while there are cheap prices on some things, on the whole my local Fred Meyers (Krogers is parent company) was cheaper.

I also agree your food bill for a family of 5 is pretty low. As is your car insurance and cell phone bill. Our cell phone bill for 3 is around $280. When we first arrived here our car insurance bill was about $250 a month for two cars.

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

:goodpost:

Re: How much is enough – Northeast
 

OK, I'll have a go at the school thing for you...I have 2 in JH and 1 in Elementary.

- Official School Supplies - average $50 per kid per year
- School supply "extras" - $10ish/k/y
- Yearbook (if you buy them - most seem to) around $50/k/y
- "spirit" shirts - $10-15/k/y
- "specialist" shirts - band, 5th grade, 8th grade etc - $0-15/k/y
- JH Band - we have to buy our instruments - 6th grader is doing trumpet - $500. 8th grader did percussion - $400 in 6th, and recommended home practice instrument in 7th was $:scaredhair:3000. We bought the same on Craigslist for $700, and sold it this year for the same price:thumbup:
- JH Band - despite above, all members get a $100 per year instrument fee to cover the "big stuff" - Euphonium, Tuba, bass drum, trailer to cart it all round in
- JH PE kits - $15/k/y (laundered by school for free!)
- Specialist equipment is extra - fortunately mine are in cheap sports (swimming and soccer) rather than Football....
- Fundraisers - normally a check writing option, we stick in $100 per kid. Then a few weeks later, the fundraisers come home..............:mad:
- School Parties - $10/k/y
- EOY teacher gifts - elementary we used to give $25 gift cards to all their teachers - ranged from 3-6 teachers per kid depending on year. JH I only send to the ones that I feel have put in extra - like my eldest's ELA teacher last year - she earned a Caribbean cruise with all the extra effort she put in for him. However life is unfair and she only got a gift card.....
- Field trips - vary from $0-25 /k/y in Elementary, but more in JH - Band did an end of year water park trip that was I think $45

I'm sure there is stuff I've missed - most of it comes at the beginning of the school year, and then its just like a slow continuous drip drip drip of money throughout the year.