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HMRC form 2002

HMRC form 2002

Old Sep 18th 2023, 2:32 am
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Default HMRC form 2002

I have to complete the HRMC 2002 form to gain a NT tax status and I have a few questions I hope someone has already worked out:

The Service Center address where your last tax return was filed
I have not filed a tax return for 20 years - can I leave it blank or is this a red flag

United States Account Number
Is there such a thing?

Exact date of departure from UK
I left in 1988 but was paid in the UK for part of that time as it was temporary assignment. Is this when I stopped being paid, received a green card, gained US citizenship?

Part B
2. What date did you begin to live in US permanently
Citizenship /green card or a previous visa (E1)

From what date have you paid or will pay tax to IRS
I was deducted token amount from a pension drawdown this month (Sept 23)- so this is 01/01/2023?

Part C
What is your Nationality
I am UK and US - which do I choose?

Enter full details of work pensions and annuities
I have a defined contribution SIPP - does that get entered here
They also ask for P60 which I have forgotten when this is issued and if I'll get one

Further question - I have a IRS form 6166 which must be attached by IRS when it is sent back to HMRC - should I reapply so that a new one can be attached


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Old Sep 19th 2023, 4:20 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Following.

Sorry, I can't help with the questions but am interested in the answers.

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Old Sep 19th 2023, 10:03 pm
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Originally Posted by TerryGoX
I have to complete the HRMC 2002 form to gain a NT tax status and I have a few questions I hope someone has already worked out:

The Service Center address where your last tax return was filed
I have not filed a tax return for 20 years - can I leave it blank or is this a red flag - I entered the address of the IRS center for a mail in tax return, with a comment that I e-filed

United States Account Number - I put my SS number again
Is there such a thing?

Exact date of departure from UK
I left in 1988 but was paid in the UK for part of that time as it was temporary assignment. Is this when I stopped being paid, received a green card, gained US citizenship? - I put the date I left for the USA in 1987 even though it was a temporary visa and I continued to receive part of my salary in the UK.


Part B
2. What date did you begin to live in US permanently
Citizenship /green card or a previous visa (E1) -I put the date we landed in the USA which was the day we left the UK

From what date have you paid or will pay tax to IRS
I was deducted token amount from a pension drawdown this month (Sept 23)- so this is 01/01/2023? - I don’t see this question on the form I completed back in 2007. I think this must refer to the start of withdrawals so I would have put the date of my first US pay advice.

Part C
What is your Nationality
I am UK and US - which do I choose? I was also dual nationality and I chose to put USA

Enter full details of work pensions and annuities
I have a defined contribution SIPP - does that get entered here - I didn’t have one but I wouldn’t expect they want to know that unless you are making distributions
They also ask for P60 which I have forgotten when this is issued and if I'll get one P60 not requested, I did enter details of the UK pension I had just started receiving

Further question - I have a IRS form 6166 which must be attached by IRS when it is sent back to HMRC - should I reapply so that a new one can be attached - Don’t know or recall
I have indicated in bold what may answers were when I completed the form in 2007.

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Old Sep 20th 2023, 4:11 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

That's very helpful DurhamLad - I did speak to HMRC who also suggested (without a great deal of conviction I might add) the service center address would be that for the IRS and not the HMRC. I did as you suggested, I found the mailing center for my state and added that as well as indicated the filing was via efile.

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Old Sep 20th 2023, 6:54 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

I went through this procedure starting in May this year.
Service Centre: I put the address of the UK tax office where I last filed a tax return in the UK. This was accepted. I can see that they may mean where one last filed a US tax return.

IRS account number: I left this blank and filled in my SSN in the box below.
Exact date of departure: I entered the date I left the UK to come to the US permanently, not the date I became a US permanent resident.
Date you began to live in the US: same date as exact date of departure from UK, same reasoning.

B.3. From what date have you paid ...: In my case, the first withdrawal from my UK SIPP was this year, so I entered 01-01-2023.

Part C
Nationality: I have dual nationality also (Ireland/US) and chose to enter US here. The post-hoc logic would be that I want to be treated as a US national for tax purposes and also the US government will be reviewing this form and are a bit squirrely about dual citizenship.

Details of pensions and annuities: I entered my SIPP details here. Once the SIPP starts being drawn down, the administrator will issue a P60 (in April, after the end of the UK tax year).

IRS form 6166 -- My understanding is that you need the IRS stamp on your form 2002 and that they will forward the complete package to HMRC. When I applied, I stupidly forgot to tick the box on the IRS form 8802 that asks for one's spouse's form 2002 to be stamped and a separate form 6166 to be generated for them. So HMRC returned my wife's paperwork as incomplete. Mine was accepted. The whole process took about three months from submission to IRS to receiving the refund from HMRC.
I am not sure how HMRC would view a form 6166 and a form 2002 without the IRS stamp (it's just a date stamp). If this is not urgent, you could try sending what you have to HMRC. Otherwise, you have to prepay the IRS fee and file witth the IRS.

One learning from my point of view was that form 2002 incorrectly suggests that the main way of refunding UL tax is to mail the refund to you at your US address. If you set up a UK tax web account (highly recommended), then you will get a notification when your tax code changes and an invitation to apply for an EFT refund. I set up a Wise account for the purposes of receiving sterling payments and that worked perfectly for receiving my UK tax refund a few days after my tax code changed to NT.

A final point is that HMRC has a form on their website where they notify you of letters they have received from you, with a link to another page that indicates when you could expect a reply. However, form 2002 does not seem to be one of the forms that prompts these notifications.

Good luck!
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Old Sep 28th 2023, 3:36 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Funny enough Im currently on hold with HMRC at the moment over this.

I've completed form 2002 to claim back income tax on earnings in the UK. I've sent it to the IRS along with form 8802 so that they can generate form 6166 (certificate of us tax residency) and then they forward it onto HMRC.

I got the certificate (form 6166) sent to me in the post. I was expecting this to me sent to HMRC along with my form by the IRS. Is this a copy? Have the IRS actually sent this to HMRC? When anyone else submitted form 2002 to the IRS, did you also get the certificate in the post? I'm calling to see if HMRC have received anything, but I'm worried I'm going to hit a brick wall with them.

UPDATE:

Just got off the phone to HMRC who have not received anything from the IRS, this was sent back in July....... nothings ever simple. I suspect they have just sent me the certificate and binned off the HMRC form 2002 that was with it. I've got everything I need, just need an IRS stamp on the form. I'm now on hold to see if I can get an appointment at my local IRS office to stamp the form so I can send it onto HMRC. I suspect this won't be as simple as its needs to be either,

Last edited by AlanD; Sep 28th 2023 at 4:44 am.
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Old Sep 28th 2023, 4:45 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Originally Posted by AlanD
Funny enough Im currently on hold with HMRC at the moment over this.

I've completed form 2002 to claim back income tax on earnings in the UK. I've sent it to the IRS along with form 8802 so that they can generate form 6166 (certificate of us tax residency) and then they forward it onto HMRC.

I got the certificate (form 6166) sent to me in the post. I was expecting this to me sent to HMRC along with my form by the IRS. Is this a copy? Have the IRS actually sent this to HMRC? When anyone else submitted form 2002 to the IRS, did you also get the certificate in the post? Im calling to see if HMRC have received anything, but Im worried Im going to hit a brick wall with them.

Gone through this process on several occasions....... I also had the 6166 sent to me at first, but then for the additional times I had to ask for it, the IRS sent it to me.
Send the form to HMRC (couriered) together with a letter and copy of the 2002.
By being sent couriered at least you will have proof that HMRC received the forms. (HMRC always denied ever receiving them when the IRS said they had sent them direct)
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Old Sep 28th 2023, 4:48 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Thanks for the info, really appreciate that. This is my first time filing this (in case you couldn't tell).

I'll see if the IRS office will stamp it for me, in which case it will all be done. Worst case, I'll have to do what you did and send it off with a letter. Did you send yours direct to HMRC without the IRS stamp on form 2002?
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Old Sep 28th 2023, 6:21 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

When I filed these forms this year, I sent the US form and the UK form to the IRS office in Philly and received the 6166 cert back from the IRS, just as you have. The HMRC website never showed that they had received anything from the IRS, but after about 6-8 weeks HMRC notified me they had changed my tax code to NT and that I could apply online to have my refund paid. It's a sample size of one but there was no issue in my case with HMRC not receiving or denying receiving the forms from the IRS. The processing time lined up reasonably well with the HMRC website wait time estimate for similar services.

If it's more than eight weeks since you got your form back from the IRS, I'd consider sending the copies to HMRC. If it's less that eight weeks, I'd wait and see if the system will actually work.

One other thing -- I made the mistake of not checking the box to request a separate 6166 for my wife. IRS did not stamp her UK form or issue a cert for her. HMRC sent her back a letter saying why they hadn't acted on her request and how to fix it. So the system seems to work despite being a giant black box that provides no feedback until the final answer.



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Old Sep 28th 2023, 7:15 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Thanks so much for you reply and info.

My cert I got in the post wasted dated July 17th, so 10 weeks ago now. The fact the HMRC person on the phone has told me they havnent had anything worries me.

I think Im just going to bite the bullet and mail it to HMRC without the stamp and see what they come back with. IRS were about as useful as a chocolate tea pot on the phone.

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Old Sep 28th 2023, 7:56 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Originally Posted by AlanD
Thanks for the info, really appreciate that. This is my first time filing this (in case you couldn't tell).

I'll see if the IRS office will stamp it for me, in which case it will all be done. Worst case, I'll have to do what you did and send it off with a letter. Did you send yours direct to HMRC without the IRS stamp on form 2002?
Yes I did.... in my first post I should have said "the IRS on two occasions sent the 6166 together with form 2002 to HMRC.
However, on both occasions HMRC denies ever receiving it. I therefore couriered 6166 and the 2002 to HMRC and had a receipt of delivery.
Overall I have been battling HMRC for past 3 years to get an NT code..... which I finally got this year.... but still cannot get the tax I paid back.....
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Old Sep 29th 2023, 3:25 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Originally Posted by SanDiegogirl
Yes I did.... in my first post I should have said "the IRS on two occasions sent the 6166 together with form 2002 to HMRC.
However, on both occasions HMRC denies ever receiving it. I therefore couriered 6166 and the 2002 to HMRC and had a receipt of delivery.
Overall I have been battling HMRC for past 3 years to get an NT code..... which I finally got this year.... but still cannot get the tax I paid back.....
HMRC got back to me today (less than 24hr turn around!) with the following:

I confirm that the IRS do normally send the Double Taxation claim and related certificates directly to HMRC for review. I must advise you, however, that I am unable to trace these documents on our postal system. In some cases, these forms are sent directly to a specialist team to be processed, meaning that they will not appear on the normal system. Please note that it can take some time for these forms to reach the UK if sent internationally.

If you have any concerns however, you may need to re-apply to the IRS for your claim to be sent again.
This person is suggesting that the IRS need to send it to them and not me. You mentioned you had reapplied for the IRS to send your 2002, how exactly did you do this? Last time I sent the form with the application for the certificate which I obviously don't need to do this time as I have the certificate. I'm also not wanting to send them the original, which I think is clear why I don't want to do that. I'm thinking of sending the 2002 form along with a copy and a cover letter asking them to reprint the certificate, stamp the form and forward to HMRC.

Just interested to hear what you did. Thanks.
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Old Sep 30th 2023, 10:26 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Originally Posted by AlanD
HMRC got back to me today (less than 24hr turn around!) with the following:



This person is suggesting that the IRS need to send it to them and not me. You mentioned you had reapplied for the IRS to send your 2002, how exactly did you do this? Last time I sent the form with the application for the certificate which I obviously don't need to do this time as I have the certificate. I'm also not wanting to send them the original, which I think is clear why I don't want to do that. I'm thinking of sending the 2002 form along with a copy and a cover letter asking them to reprint the certificate, stamp the form and forward to HMRC.

Just interested to hear what you did. Thanks.
- To reapply for the IRS to send your 2002 and your 6166 certificate to HMRC you merely apply again, and pay, again, $85.00. There appears to be no restrictions on how many times you can apply for them to do this.
- After several failed attempts to get HMRC to give me a NT tax code due to them saying they had never received the above documents, in June of this year:

- sent in a P85 form to the BX9 1AS address informing them of my leaving the UK in 2000 and living in the US since then. (this is a form which people send in these days as soon as they leave the UK, but I thought another form to confirm my living in the UK would not hurt)
- completed Form DT-Individual Double Taxation Relief and sent this, together with certificate 6166 direct to HMRC again at the BX9 1AS address. I marked on the form that a 6166 certificate was included. This form was not stamped with any IRS official stamp.

(I had received several 6166 certificates from IRS so was able to send an original)

I don't know whether this final effort was the one that paid off, but I now have an NT code.....

One thing that probably helped my cause is that I sent the forms to an actual person in HMRC who had responded to me a few months ago.

Last edited by SanDiegogirl; Sep 30th 2023 at 10:28 am.
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Old Oct 3rd 2023, 4:07 am
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Default Re: HMRC form 2002

Thanks SanDiegogirl, I appreciate that feedback.

I really don't fancy throwing more money down the drain to the IRS to just not send on the paperwork again, so I'm going to do what you did and send it myself to HMRC with a cover letter explaining what's going on.

I'll update in here in a few months (hopefully) with the outcome.
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