Help wanted WW2!
Sep 17th 2007, 12:16 pm
#197
The Unmod
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Glen Mills, PA
Posts: 8,870
Re: Help wanted WW2!
perhaps not directly, more by omission. Example: on the wall of my office I have a National Geographic map of Great Britain and Ireland. Down at the bottom of the map a section of Normandy is visible, and the National Geographic cartographers have labeled the D-Day beaches on it. Except they've only labeled the beaches where Americans landed (Utah and Omaha): the beaches assaulted by British and Canadian troops (Gold, Sword, Juno) are mysteriously absent. That's the kind of thing that fosters ignorance and winds British people up.
I just read that they delayed release in the UK because of the fuss:
http://errolflynn.net/Filmography/ob.htm
Sep 17th 2007, 2:20 pm
#198
Re vera, potas bene.
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Cape Cod MA..Davenport FL
Posts: 2,405
Re: Help wanted WW2!
I just say one word Russia ...really everyone done their bit...no one country won the war...but I find bring in Russia always makes people stop and think....
Sep 17th 2007, 2:26 pm
#199
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Re: Help wanted WW2!
Sep 17th 2007, 3:57 pm
#200
Sursum corda
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Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Sep 17th 2007, 4:42 pm
#201
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 557
Re: Help wanted WW2!
OK, we'll go back to this.
Jokes aside, I don't think that you'll find that many people, particularly the urban hipsters on the coasts, who believe this sort of thing. But for those who do, here's a thought --
Until the 1930's, Americans were generally isolationist in their political views. It began with Washington's advisory to avoid "foreign entanglements", and continued through the end of the 19th century, when Americans were too busy conquering native peoples and the Mexicans to worry about much beyond North America.
WWI saw a momentary sea change in public sentiment in its support for WWI, so the rise of fascism so soon thereafter was a letdown. The attitude during the Great War had been that we'll go over there, help them sort things out, and peace will descend upon the world, but within less than twenty years, the whole thing had unraveled pretty badly. Americans in the late thirties were generally in no mood to jump into a war that they thought that the last one would prevent from ever happening again.
To motivate Americans to go fight WWII, it was necessary to convince them that they must be saviors of the world to the downtrodden who can't survive without them. It was the belief that America could make a difference in the world and help its friends that convinced the average slob to buy war bonds, ration meat and send his kids into the grinder, even though they otherwise had no business there.
And there you have it. If Americans don't think that they make the critical difference in a foreign conflict, they don't want to make the sacrifice. They participate in the belief that it's part of the democratic mission, not just because it's supposedly important. It's therefore important to convince them that the cause is noble AND that they are uniquely positioned to fix it in order to get them to participate.
Ironically, it was the absence of a belief that your asses deserved saving that kept the US out of WWII as long as it did. FDR did not have enough popular will among the electorate to declare war on Germany as early as 1941, until Hitler stupidly fixed the problem for him.
If Americans had maintained the mentality that some of you desire, they would have stayed home in the belief that you should have sorted out the Hitler problem for yourselves, without their help or their blood, for it wasn't otherwise their business. You might be careful what you wish for, next time...
Jokes aside, I don't think that you'll find that many people, particularly the urban hipsters on the coasts, who believe this sort of thing. But for those who do, here's a thought --
Until the 1930's, Americans were generally isolationist in their political views. It began with Washington's advisory to avoid "foreign entanglements", and continued through the end of the 19th century, when Americans were too busy conquering native peoples and the Mexicans to worry about much beyond North America.
WWI saw a momentary sea change in public sentiment in its support for WWI, so the rise of fascism so soon thereafter was a letdown. The attitude during the Great War had been that we'll go over there, help them sort things out, and peace will descend upon the world, but within less than twenty years, the whole thing had unraveled pretty badly. Americans in the late thirties were generally in no mood to jump into a war that they thought that the last one would prevent from ever happening again.
To motivate Americans to go fight WWII, it was necessary to convince them that they must be saviors of the world to the downtrodden who can't survive without them. It was the belief that America could make a difference in the world and help its friends that convinced the average slob to buy war bonds, ration meat and send his kids into the grinder, even though they otherwise had no business there.
And there you have it. If Americans don't think that they make the critical difference in a foreign conflict, they don't want to make the sacrifice. They participate in the belief that it's part of the democratic mission, not just because it's supposedly important. It's therefore important to convince them that the cause is noble AND that they are uniquely positioned to fix it in order to get them to participate.
Ironically, it was the absence of a belief that your asses deserved saving that kept the US out of WWII as long as it did. FDR did not have enough popular will among the electorate to declare war on Germany as early as 1941, until Hitler stupidly fixed the problem for him.
If Americans had maintained the mentality that some of you desire, they would have stayed home in the belief that you should have sorted out the Hitler problem for yourselves, without their help or their blood, for it wasn't otherwise their business. You might be careful what you wish for, next time...
My goodness that's a lose view on history.
A couple of facts about WWII:
1. At the outset of WWII Great Britain was the worlds largest superpower - so could hardly be described as downtrodden
2. In terms of strength the British, French and Belguim armies were more than a match for the Germans and Italians but Britains desire to secure the Belguim border despite the reluctance of the Belguims coupled with some shocking choices made by the French, terrible communications, and a lack of defendable positions in the French sectors contributed to a rout that shocked the world - again hardly downtrodden but yes their own worst enemies.
3. American opinion after Dunkirk was that Germany would win within a couple of weeks, a view shared in some quarters of Britain.
4. The American military were afraid that the British fleet would fall into German hands, making the Germans the new superpower.
5. It wasn't until 1944 that American forces in Europe were equal in strength of the British and her allies - by then the game was already up for Germany
We most certainly do owe the Americans a debt of gratitude as we do the Australians, Canadians, and so forth.
I would contest that in much the same way as it is wrong to say the French are cowards it is wrong to say the Americans "saved our asses" - it would however be true to say that American intervention significantly altered the look of post war Europe.
I could go on and on but to be honest I find these sorts of arguments a bit of a disservice to the memory of the brave men and women of whatever nation that fought.
To answer the OP request - the response, if any, I would give is "Well we certainly tried our best to" (the answer for that lies in several events leading up to WWII notably the Rhineland mobilisation and the Czech capitulation where we desired peace at almost any cost)
Sep 17th 2007, 4:44 pm
#202
BE Site Lead
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 92,170
Re: Help wanted WW2!
who won the battle for air supremacy?
The war started in '39....
And errr...well we had to let 'em win way back when, because no one likes to see a nation needing the frogs to bail them out.
The war started in '39....
And errr...well we had to let 'em win way back when, because no one likes to see a nation needing the frogs to bail them out.
Sep 17th 2007, 11:07 pm
#203
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 175
Re: Help wanted WW2!
Rob, tell them U-Boats were circling 10 miles off Manhattan before the US even came into the war. Imagine if the UK had capitulated as easily as the French that might have left Hitler with much more ability to threaten the US directly. Recommend they read a book 'A man called Intrepid' about Churchill, FDR and A Canadian ( name escapes me) who organized the spy network pre 1938 that prepared a lot of intelligence for FDR to convince the US to come into the war. The Republicans threatened FDR with impeachment if he brought the US into 'Europe's War' and they only went in by one vote in Congress.
Sep 17th 2007, 11:30 pm
#204
The Unmod
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Glen Mills, PA
Posts: 8,870
Re: Help wanted WW2!
Rob, tell them U-Boats were circling 10 miles off Manhattan before the US even came into the war. Imagine if the UK had capitulated as easily as the French that might have left Hitler with much more ability to threaten the US directly. Recommend they read a book 'A man called Intrepid' about Churchill, FDR and A Canadian ( name escapes me) who organized the spy network pre 1938 that prepared a lot of intelligence for FDR to convince the US to come into the war. The Republicans threatened FDR with impeachment if he brought the US into 'Europe's War' and they only went in by one vote in Congress.
Sep 18th 2007, 12:52 am
#205
MODERATOR
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Hong Kong, mostly.
Posts: 5,214
Re: Help wanted WW2!
The Declaration of War on Japan was passed on December 8 on a vote of 388-1 in the House and 82-0 in the Senate. Trivia Question: Anyone know the name of the one woman who voted 'no'? (Answer below--There is a statue of her in the Capitol now).
The Declaration of War on Germany and Italy was passed on December 11 on a vote of 393-0 (one voting present)/88-0 on Germany and 399-0 (one voting present)/90-0 on Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara..._United_States
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/dec/decmenu.htm
Trivia Answer: Jeannette Rankin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannette_Rankin
Last edited by penguinsix; Sep 18th 2007 at 12:56 am.
Sep 18th 2007, 1:22 am
#206
.
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Where bad things rarely happen in movies
Posts: 8,933
Re: Help wanted WW2!
[QUOTE=RoadWarriorFromLP;5319831]I think that some of us learned to take the piss out of our British cousins. However, not all said cousins have figured out how to take a joke.
QUOTE]
Flippin heck - this thread took some catching up on.....
I'd have thought there must be some Brits out there that are pretty well able to take the piss out of their US cousins too ? (although they may need to telegraph it with suitable "I was joking" sort of comments...).
Out of interest, if you think Brits haven't "figured out how to take a joke" about their efforts and sacrifices during WWII being discounted, how long do you think it would take Americans to "figure out how to take a joke" about 9/11, or maybe even Iraq? Thing is, I doubt we'll ever know, because I suspect most Brits would exercise a little more sensitivity in such issues - even 50, 75 years down the line.
QUOTE]
Flippin heck - this thread took some catching up on.....
I'd have thought there must be some Brits out there that are pretty well able to take the piss out of their US cousins too ? (although they may need to telegraph it with suitable "I was joking" sort of comments...).
Out of interest, if you think Brits haven't "figured out how to take a joke" about their efforts and sacrifices during WWII being discounted, how long do you think it would take Americans to "figure out how to take a joke" about 9/11, or maybe even Iraq? Thing is, I doubt we'll ever know, because I suspect most Brits would exercise a little more sensitivity in such issues - even 50, 75 years down the line.
Sep 18th 2007, 1:35 am
#207
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Re: Help wanted WW2!
[QUOTE=Yorkieabroad;5323558]
Considering that while 9/11 took place on American soil and the majority of people who died as a result were American, NOT all were American. I seem to remember there were some Brits as well as other nationalities. The war in Iraq is not without British casualties.
Summary, I don't think that either one of those would be suitable choices for comebacks ANYWHERE, ANYTIME down the road.
PS A one upsmanship on who did what to who and how well or poorly or whatever not only shows a lack of sensitivity and class, it also shows ignorance. That goes for ANYONE of ANY NATIONALITY.
I think that some of us learned to take the piss out of our British cousins. However, not all said cousins have figured out how to take a joke.
QUOTE]
Flippin heck - this thread took some catching up on.....
I'd have thought there must be some Brits out there that are pretty well able to take the piss out of their US cousins too ? (although they may need to telegraph it with suitable "I was joking" sort of comments...).
Out of interest, if you think Brits haven't "figured out how to take a joke" about their efforts and sacrifices during WWII being discounted, how long do you think it would take Americans to "figure out how to take a joke" about 9/11, or maybe even Iraq? Thing is, I doubt we'll ever know, because I suspect most Brits would exercise a little more sensitivity in such issues - even 50, 75 years down the line.
QUOTE]
Flippin heck - this thread took some catching up on.....
I'd have thought there must be some Brits out there that are pretty well able to take the piss out of their US cousins too ? (although they may need to telegraph it with suitable "I was joking" sort of comments...).
Out of interest, if you think Brits haven't "figured out how to take a joke" about their efforts and sacrifices during WWII being discounted, how long do you think it would take Americans to "figure out how to take a joke" about 9/11, or maybe even Iraq? Thing is, I doubt we'll ever know, because I suspect most Brits would exercise a little more sensitivity in such issues - even 50, 75 years down the line.
Summary, I don't think that either one of those would be suitable choices for comebacks ANYWHERE, ANYTIME down the road.
PS A one upsmanship on who did what to who and how well or poorly or whatever not only shows a lack of sensitivity and class, it also shows ignorance. That goes for ANYONE of ANY NATIONALITY.
Last edited by cindyabs; Sep 18th 2007 at 1:38 am.
Sep 18th 2007, 1:45 am
#208
.
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Where bad things rarely happen in movies
Posts: 8,933
Re: Help wanted WW2!
[QUOTE=cindyabs;5323587]
Considering that while 9/11 took place on American soil and the majority of people who died as a result were American, NOT all were American. I seem to remember there were some Brits as well as other nationalities. The war in Iraq is not without British casualties.
Summary, I don't think that either one of those would be suitable choices for comebacks ANYWHERE, ANYTIME down the road.
PS A one upsmanship on who did what to who and how well or poorly or whatever not only shows a lack of sensitivity and class, it also shows ignorance. That goes for ANYONE of ANY NATIONALITY.
I agree - you seem to have missed the point of my post....my reply was to the post suggesting that Brits lacked a sense of humour because they couldn't take the "jokes" about being saved in WWII. I was merely asking at what point the poster thought Americans would develop a sense of humour about 9/11 and Iraq which would permit them to take "jokes" about those occurrences with good grace. And then I said I thought it would never come to that because most folk would be more sensitive to it and not try to make fun out of it. Unlike the Americans and their jibes (not jokes) about WWII. Did I manage to make myself clear that time without shouting?
Considering that while 9/11 took place on American soil and the majority of people who died as a result were American, NOT all were American. I seem to remember there were some Brits as well as other nationalities. The war in Iraq is not without British casualties.
Summary, I don't think that either one of those would be suitable choices for comebacks ANYWHERE, ANYTIME down the road.
PS A one upsmanship on who did what to who and how well or poorly or whatever not only shows a lack of sensitivity and class, it also shows ignorance. That goes for ANYONE of ANY NATIONALITY.
I agree - you seem to have missed the point of my post....my reply was to the post suggesting that Brits lacked a sense of humour because they couldn't take the "jokes" about being saved in WWII. I was merely asking at what point the poster thought Americans would develop a sense of humour about 9/11 and Iraq which would permit them to take "jokes" about those occurrences with good grace. And then I said I thought it would never come to that because most folk would be more sensitive to it and not try to make fun out of it. Unlike the Americans and their jibes (not jokes) about WWII. Did I manage to make myself clear that time without shouting?
Sep 18th 2007, 1:57 am
#209
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Re: Help wanted WW2!
[QUOTE=Yorkieabroad;5323613]
I agree - you seem to have missed the point of my post....my reply was to the post suggesting that Brits lacked a sense of humour because they couldn't take the "jokes" about being saved in WWII. I was merely asking at what point the poster thought Americans would develop a sense of humour about 9/11 and Iraq which would permit them to take "jokes" about those occurrences with good grace. And then I said I thought it would never come to that because most folk would be more sensitive to it and not try to make fun out of it. Unlike the Americans and their jibes (not jokes) about WWII. Did I manage to make myself clear that time without shouting?
I did get your point. However, I also did not care for the statement that the Brits would show more sensitivity, which you had stated in your reply to the poster. Anyone with a lick of sense and manners would know better than to throw an ignorant comment out in the attempt to come off humorous about a very non humorous subject-my point.
Touchy? You're damn right I am. I've had a bellyful of the whole subject and some of the less than gallant attempts at clarification on this and other military endeavors..
War is hell, anyone who doesn't realize it or accept it to be so is a fool.
I agree - you seem to have missed the point of my post....my reply was to the post suggesting that Brits lacked a sense of humour because they couldn't take the "jokes" about being saved in WWII. I was merely asking at what point the poster thought Americans would develop a sense of humour about 9/11 and Iraq which would permit them to take "jokes" about those occurrences with good grace. And then I said I thought it would never come to that because most folk would be more sensitive to it and not try to make fun out of it. Unlike the Americans and their jibes (not jokes) about WWII. Did I manage to make myself clear that time without shouting?
Touchy? You're damn right I am. I've had a bellyful of the whole subject and some of the less than gallant attempts at clarification on this and other military endeavors..
War is hell, anyone who doesn't realize it or accept it to be so is a fool.
Sep 18th 2007, 2:09 am
#210
.
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Where bad things rarely happen in movies
Posts: 8,933
Re: Help wanted WW2!
[QUOTE=cindyabs;5323640]
However, I also did not care for the statement that the Brits would show more sensitivity, which you had stated in your reply to the poster. Anyone with a lick of sense and manners would know better than to throw an ignorant comment out in the attempt to come off humorous about a very non humorous subject-my point.
Who was trying to be humourous? I certainly wasn't. I was trying to point out the hipocrisy in the accusation that Brits can't take the "jokes" about WWII....when its patently obvious that if the boot were on the other foot then there would likely be a sense of humour failure too..........and quite rightly.
If you didn't "care for my comment", maybe you can enlighten me - Are you aware of any jokes emanating from Brits about 9/11? Iraq? I'm not. But I am painfully aware of the crap that gets doled out masquerading as jokes by "the good ole boys" over here about WWII. As it would appear, are a lot of other people ...
However, I also did not care for the statement that the Brits would show more sensitivity, which you had stated in your reply to the poster. Anyone with a lick of sense and manners would know better than to throw an ignorant comment out in the attempt to come off humorous about a very non humorous subject-my point.
If you didn't "care for my comment", maybe you can enlighten me - Are you aware of any jokes emanating from Brits about 9/11? Iraq? I'm not. But I am painfully aware of the crap that gets doled out masquerading as jokes by "the good ole boys" over here about WWII. As it would appear, are a lot of other people ...