Manc

we do that! fun isn't it!

DBH

effi

Not at all, it was in reference to the other saying in one of the posts, 'all heterosexuals are flawed'.

Hermotimus

I recall reading something a few years back, marking five years after the Netherlands began granting marriage rights to gay couples, and at the time, the divorce rate for same-sex couples was substantially lower than for heterosexual couples married the same amount of time. But that statistic would probably be skewed by the fact that a lot of the gay couples who were officially married only for the few years it was possible actually have been together for years, so the statistic probably didn't accurately reflect the disproportionate number of marriages that break up in the first year or so.

Comparing the break-up rates for gay couples and straight couples who are just living together rather than married might provide some useful idea, but I don't see what's gained by comparing the break-up of a marriage, with all it's cultural and legal incentives to remain together, to relationships that not only have no legal incentives but often entail a lot of cultural pressures against them.

I was chatting recently with a friend of mine who mentioned recently meeting two men who have been a couple since they got out of the service just after World War II. Now fifty-eight years would be a respectable committed marriage for a straight couple, but when you consider that in their home state of Texas, the fact of their relationship was criminal for fifty-seven of those years, it seems to me it takes extraordinary commitment.

If the Ellen DeGeneres/Anne Heche break-up is to be seen as the standard for disapproving of same sex partnerships, I suppose fairness demands we pick eithe Elizabeth Taylor or Zsa Zsa Gabor as poster-girl for heterosexual marriage? <G>

Manc

Still after reading of 9 pages of this, and researching the stats and figures. The conclusion of my research is that I still don't give a toss.

DBH

I promised Rockgurl that I would try my best to not cause any trouble while she slept, however, I couldn't help but put in my two cents (which isn't worth much with the current exchange rate).

Effi... your examples of famous lesbians and their relationships is not a reflection of all gay and lesbian relationships. Just as we (the gay and lesbian community) cannot use Jennifer Lopez, Ben Affleck, Puff-Daddy-Sean-whatever-his-name-is-today, or Brittany Spears as examples of the heterosexual community as a whole. I'm sure that you're going to say that you didn't mean that, but your posts imply that. In fact, your posts imply quite a lot of other things, but I won't go there.

Those who are currently in the tabloids for their short-lived romances and promiscuity are nothing but a reflection of how some people view relationships in general. A lot of people (not all) change partners as often as they change their socks. (Heck, even if you thumb through the Bible, you will also see that even they were promiscuous in that too). We see it in Hollywood... we see it with our own families and friends. You spoke of those particular lesbian couples as if they were the same, yet, Rosie and her wife have been together for several years, and Melissa and Tammy's relationship appears to be quite stable too. Still, no one can predict that any of their marriages will last an eternity, just like we cannot predict that any or all heterosexual marriages will work. Some relationships last, and some do not. Just because they are gay, doesn't mean that they are destined to split. I am happy that you and your husband have been together for all those years. The current divorce statistics throughout the world saddens me, so it's great to hear that some couples manage to get through it without any problems. Kudos for you! And when Rockgurl and I celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary, we will think back to all of those couples who provided such good examples for us--gay and straight.

As for the way that gays and lesbians look, then all I can ask you is... do you wear pants? Have you ever had short hair, or known any straight women who have done so? Do you know of any straight men who wear their hair long, or maybe even have earrings? Then you all must be gay! :scared: But seriously, all people (gay or straight) identify differently. You identify as being a heterosexual woman and probably dress differently than those "butch dykes" that you referred to. While you may fit that hetero female stereotype, it's unfair to say that a woman who doesn't is automatically assumed to be a lesbian, isn't it? My mother and all her sisters have short "men's" haircuts, and don't wear dresses all the time, but I can assure you that each one of them is very much straight. Whereas, I have long hair and wear dresses occasionally too, so does that make me a straight woman? lol Yes, society tends to stereotype most races, nationalities, sexes, yadda yadda, but just like not all Italian men are named Tony, you cannot say that all lesbians and gay men come off the same way. And if we did... then why should it matter?

You're comment about lesbians disliking men so much (for engaging in sex with) didn't seem well-thought out. We are not gay because we don't like having sex with the opposite sex. That would mean that every lesbian has slept with a man before, but we know that that isn't true. There are many who have never been with someone of the opposite sex, so it is unfair to say that they "dislike having sex" with them if they have never done it. That's like me saying that I dislike carrots if I have never eaten them. Or for you to say that you are a heterosexual woman solely because you dislike having sex with woman.

With all of that aside... I think what you were trying to pussyfoot around was that if a lesbian doesn't like men, then why does a lesbian behave/look like a man? That, dear Effi, is an inaccurate observation. Seeing that you do not know many gay men or lesbians, then I think you have fallen into that warped way of thinking like so many of the misinformed in the world today. My best advice to you is to get informed!

Sexual orientation is all about genetic makeup... DNA! Everyday, scientists from all over the world are identifying new strands of DNA, hoping to find cures for medical conditions, and other illnesses, all the while... trying to get "the Big Picture." I'm a Pediatric/Neonatal Respiratory Therapist in one of the country's top children's hospitals. Being in the medical field, I see all sorts of "medical marvels"... many which go unexplained/undiagnosed. If you think about how complex the human body is, then it's easy to see how every person is completely different! No two people in this world are alike! Science, no matter how awesome it may be, is... umm... err... not an exact science! lol It is not perfect, but it tries it's best to figure out the causes and effects for everything. Take this for an example... a perfectly healthy heterosexual couple with no family history of medical illnesses, etc. decides to start a family. While building their family over the years, they are blessed with two healthy children. However, while giving birth to their third child, the couple is informed by the doctors that the infant has severe syndromes. How does that happen? If the parents were both healthy and didn't do anything during the pregnancy to cause any harm to the growing fetus, then why did it happen? It's not an exact science, so the probability of it does exist... and it does happen... ALL the time!

What I'm taking so long to get at is that we are who we are because we are predisposed to be that individual. Effi, you were predisposed to be a heterosexual woman, while I was predisposed to be a homosexual woman. Genetically, neither of us are perfect because there is no "perfect" individual. I am no more of a genetic marvel than you are. I do not identify with being a man, nor do I want to be one. I am very much a woman! I don't find men sexually attractive, just as you don't find women sexually attractive. That so-called "butch dyke" that you saw on the street whom you could barely tell was a woman may identify totally different than me. While we both appear to be women when we're stripped down naked, we are both very much different. That person's genetic identification is strong; it fills her every thought and every action and cannot be changed--just as you feel that your identification cannot be changed. That person may very well identify and "feel" like a man, but that is simply for the fact that her genes are telling her so. Those are the same feelings that make you identify and "feel" like a heterosexual woman, and I... a homosexual woman. Each of us may be different, and no one has the right to say which is right or wrong... and no one should deny ANYONE their rights as a human being!

I truly hope that one day, you will finally find all of your answers to what you've been asking. Sorry for the lengthy post... and all the

Manc

I am a heterosexual and far from healthy.
Bag of chips, meat and potato pie and 30 tabs a day.

So changing the subject slightly
Can you be metrosexual if you live in the country?

dunroving

Have to disagree with you on that one.

I've never had sex with a guy but I know I wouldn't like it, just like I've never been hit by a truck but I know I wouldn't like it either.... but if I had to choose I think I'd rather be hit by a truck.

Or are you distinguishing between "dislike" and "wouldn't like"?

Can't imagine how hard it must be being gay in the US - a lot easier than it used to be but still not easy enough. We all should speak out against anti-gay discrimination.

DBH

Just using effi's words. Maybe I should have just quoted her so that it didn't get taken the wrong way. My mistake.

But then... how do you know that you wouldn't like being hit by a truck. Maybe you shouldn't knock unless you've tried it. That's what my mom used to say about spinach.

Britfrombristol

Dunroving:- "We all should speak out against anti-gay discrimination"

So you are pro discrimination then?

dunroving

I think words like "vote" and "job" were reserved for use only in reference to men for a long time, but that changed. Hopefully the same thing will happen to the word "marriage".

dunroving

Your mum was a wise woman. Spinach is the best. Especially on pizza.

dunroving

Yes I am - pro discrimination against anti-gay discriminators.

Now I've really confused myself.

supernav

Life is unfair.

deal with it.

-= nav =-

Manc

justice and liberty for all.