Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > USA
Reload this Page >

filing UK pension in US

filing UK pension in US

Old Mar 27th 2021, 6:29 pm
  #1  
Just Joined
Thread Starter
 
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 1
Yorkshiregal is an unknown quantity at this point
Default filing UK pension in US

Help. I an now US citizen living in US. Just started to receive my UK pension and I am extremely confused about how to do this. I have read so much on legal and many other sites about 1040 line 21 negative amount, filing for tax exemption for 8833 and am still no closer. Is there anyone here who, in fact does file their UK pension with the IRS? Note: my UK pension is less that the UK personal allowance. Thanks in advance.
Yorkshiregal is offline  
Old Mar 27th 2021, 8:42 pm
  #2  
Heading for Poppyland
 
robin1234's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 12,046
robin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Are you saying that you also pay tax in the UK? Otherwise why would the 8833 come into it? If you are a US citizen, living in the US, why aren’t you simply paying tax in the US on your British pensions?
robin1234 is offline  
Old Mar 27th 2021, 10:02 pm
  #3  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 25
retman is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

What you do not make clear is for 2020 whether you were a US citizen or "green card resident alien" or other status requiring reporting to the US authorities and therefore liable for US tax. Or did your US citizenship and/or US residency commence in 2021. This impacts whether you are required to complete any IRS 1040 tax returns or other financial reporting to the US such as FINCEN (FBAR).
1) UK pension income is reportable to the IRS on your 1040 tax return. You use the term "just started to receive". If you started receiving UK pension in 2021, it will be reported in your tax return for 2021, which would be completed next year in 2022. Pension income received in 2020 is reportable on Please read form 1040 instructions where it is stated Foreign Pensions are reported on line 5a and 5b.
2) I am assuming you are referring to the UK State Pension, not a private or employer pension. If private or employer type pension, information return is required on FINCEN (FBAR) annually irrespective of whether you are receiving pension income or not.However, UK State Pension is not required to be reported. Note this is not part of the IRS 1040 tax return.

retman is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 1:07 am
  #4  
Concierge
 
Rete's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 44,630
Rete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond reputeRete has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Are you saying that you also pay tax in the UK? Otherwise why would the 8833 come into it? If you are a US citizen, living in the US, why aren’t you simply paying tax in the US on your British pensions?

Husband pays tax in Canada on his pension and old age benefits. CRA wants their money ... period. We use the monies paid as a credit.
Rete is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 1:34 am
  #5  
BE Forum Addict
 
johnwoo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,144
johnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Are you saying that you also pay tax in the UK? Otherwise why would the 8833 come into it? If you are a US citizen, living in the US, why aren’t you simply paying tax in the US on your British pensions?
What I never understood, there is no statements from the UK similar to a W4. Other bank records?. How does the IRS verify what one claims to be the amount.
johnwoo is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 2:28 am
  #6  
Deep in the woods of CT
 
Nutmegger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,252
Nutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
What I never understood, there is no statements from the UK similar to a W4. Other bank records?. How does the IRS verify what one claims to be the amount.
It is done on trust — but if you get audited, what you declared had better match the credits to your bank account!
Nutmegger is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 12:56 pm
  #7  
Heading for Poppyland
 
robin1234's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 12,046
robin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
What I never understood, there is no statements from the UK similar to a W4. Other bank records?. How does the IRS verify what one claims to be the amount.
Originally Posted by Nutmegger View Post
It is done on trust — but if you get audited, what you declared had better match the credits to your bank account!
Exactly. No 1099s for British sources of income. Many people (especially retirees, I suppose) have several different sources of foreign income under each category. Dividend and interest, at least you are required to list the various accounts on the schedule B. But pensions, you simply list a total on lines 5a and 5b with no supporting documentation - my declared pension total could be just one pension, or six small pensions.

I keep bank statements, and also statements from the various pension providers, in case the IRS challenges my tax return. But, the last many years, there’s been not a peep from them. Maybe they spend more time on “billionaires” like Donald Trump?

robin1234 is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 7:29 pm
  #8  
Ex Expat
 
MMcD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,322
MMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
What I never understood, there is no statements from the UK similar to a W4. Other bank records?. How does the IRS verify what one claims to be the amount.
Originally Posted by Nutmegger View Post
It is done on trust — but if you get audited, what you declared had better match the credits to your bank account!
Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Exactly. No 1099s for British sources of income. Many people (especially retirees, I suppose) have several different sources of foreign income under each category. Dividend and interest, at least you are required to list the various accounts on the schedule B. But pensions, you simply list a total on lines 5a and 5b with no supporting documentation - my declared pension total could be just one pension, or six small pensions
I keep bank statements, and also statements from the various pension providers, in case the IRS challenges my tax return.
That's why I continue to file multiple, pesky Form 4852s (Substitute 1099-R) every year.
One for each individual pension. Each 4852 document the individual Payer's name, UK address $ conversion of total received, and total taxable amount
I labour under the illusion that more info = less reason for IRS challenges.
Furthermore - The Payer details will collate with Fbar filing (not filed with IRS, I know,...but there for them to dive into (if they have nothing else to do )

Originally Posted by Yorkshiregal View Post
Help. I an now US citizen living in US. Just started to receive my UK pension and I am extremely confused about how to do this. I have read so much on legal and many other sites about 1040 line 21 negative amount, filing for tax exemption for 8833 and am still no closer. Is there anyone here who, in fact does file their UK pension with the IRS? Note: my UK pension is less that the UK personal allowance. Thanks in advance.
OP: don't know whether you're still out there. But if you are I think you might be mistaken with regard to what you refer to as "filing for tax exemption for 8833"
Use of that form doesn't appear to be relevant / applicable to your situation.
Take a look at this IRS page....be sure to scroll down, read it all, but pay particular attention to both the "Saving Clause" and "Foreign Social Security Pensions" paragraphs:
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/the-t...-distributions
MMcD is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 9:21 pm
  #9  
BE Forum Addict
 
johnwoo's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2016
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,144
johnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond reputejohnwoo has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Exactly. No 1099s for British sources of income. Many people (especially retirees, I suppose) have several different sources of foreign income under each category. Dividend and interest, at least you are required to list the various accounts on the schedule B. But pensions, you simply list a total on lines 5a and 5b with no supporting documentation - my declared pension total could be just one pension, or six small pensions.

I keep bank statements, and also statements from the various pension providers, in case the IRS challenges my tax return. But, the last many years, there’s been not a peep from them. Maybe they spend more time on “billionaires” like Donald Trump?
From what has been reported, the bourgeoisie are less likely to be audited than the proletariat. There aren't enough tax collectors with the expertise to audit complex tax returns.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/19/92550...utiny-on-taxes

The Wealthy Getting Less Scrutiny On Taxes




Last edited by johnwoo; Mar 28th 2021 at 9:23 pm.
johnwoo is offline  
Old Mar 28th 2021, 9:52 pm
  #10  
Ex Expat
 
MMcD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: "LA LA Land"
Posts: 2,322
MMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond reputeMMcD has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by johnwoo View Post
From what has been reported, the bourgeoisie are less likely to be audited than the proletariat. There aren't enough tax collectors with the expertise to audit complex tax returns.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/19/92550...utiny-on-taxes

The Wealthy Getting Less Scrutiny On Taxes

WOW ....that's an eye opener
The NPR link says : "Four years ago, a Beverly Hills tax lawyer named Charles Rettig wrote a column for Forbes magazine defending then-candidate Donald Trump's norm-busting decision not to release his tax returns. Today Rettig runs the IRS."

And who appointed him to that position?
(hint: Head of IRS is a
Presidential appointment. Rettig's appointment was made in Sept. 2018)




MMcD is offline  
Old Mar 29th 2021, 11:28 am
  #11  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Athens GA
Posts: 1,950
MidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond reputeMidAtlantic has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Back to the OP's question!

The OP needs to complete IRS Form 8802. That then gets sent to HMRC and on the basis of that they will send a "0" code to the pension provider, which means that no UK tax will be deducted. Pre-Covid that process took about 4-6 weeks. Any UK tax already paid will be refunded.

The pension must be declared to the IRS.
MidAtlantic is offline  
Old Mar 29th 2021, 12:49 pm
  #12  
Heading for Poppyland
 
robin1234's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 12,046
robin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond reputerobin1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by MidAtlantic View Post
Back to the OP's question!

The OP needs to complete IRS Form 8802. That then gets sent to HMRC and on the basis of that they will send a "0" code to the pension provider, which means that no UK tax will be deducted. Pre-Covid that process took about 4-6 weeks. Any UK tax already paid will be refunded.

The pension must be declared to the IRS.
Ah, OK, that probably answers my initial question. The pension provider was probably deducting tax at source, I’d forgotten about that. This is one of those threads where posters can only go so far with comments & advice, if the OP doesn’t come back with follow-up information on the situation..
robin1234 is offline  
Old Mar 29th 2021, 1:23 pm
  #13  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 25
retman is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Submitted Form 8802 process early September 2020. IRS completed their part end of December. Still waiting on UK HMRC to complete their part.. So 6 months so far!!
retman is offline  
Old Apr 8th 2021, 11:06 pm
  #14  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3
tomwilley@discera.com is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Hi,
Sounds like I'm in the same predicament. My wife and I are both from the UK and are now US citizens. Last year my wife started getting her UK government pension. So this year, I'm filing the amount on my taxes and using the same amount but negative on schedule 1 line 8 with "Tax exempt under US-UK tax treaty Article 17" to effectively cancel out the amount as taxable income. I also have to fill in for 8833 and this where I'm coming unstuck. Specifically, I need help in filing in 8833 lines, 2,4,5 & 6. Has anyone filled this form out out before and can they give me some guidance.

Thanks,
Tom
tomwilley@discera.com is offline  
Old Apr 8th 2021, 11:21 pm
  #15  
Deep in the woods of CT
 
Nutmegger's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,252
Nutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond reputeNutmegger has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: filing UK pension in US

Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi,
Sounds like I'm in the same predicament. My wife and I are both from the UK and are now US citizens. Last year my wife started getting her UK government pension. So this year, I'm filing the amount on my taxes and using the same amount but negative on schedule 1 line 8 with "Tax exempt under US-UK tax treaty Article 17" to effectively cancel out the amount as taxable income. I also have to fill in for 8833 and this where I'm coming unstuck. Specifically, I need help in filing in 8833 lines, 2,4,5 & 6. Has anyone filled this form out out before and can they give me some guidance.

Thanks,
Tom
Are you paying tax on the pension in the UK? You should only be paying the tax in the US if that is where you live.
Nutmegger is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.