A date which will live in infamy ....
Dec 8th 2007, 12:13 am
#46
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
Didn't say a Brit disrespected US deaths. I actually was just thinking it was an ironic conversation among Americans.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:14 am
#47
WTF?
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
From an American perspective it was a time in history that America was still reeling and recovering from WWI and the subsequent depression. The majority of American citizens were uneducated at the time and the voting public was still largely rural or blue collar. Isolationism was a natural response as the people were just tired and broke and scared. WW2 seem to be something that was far enough away that it would never effect their lives on a personal basis.
It was under the shadow of all of this that Roosevelt was elected. In his attempt to actually serve the wishes of constituency (something unheard of today) he was forced to stay out of the war even though he knew it was best that America join the war.
I think we'd be silly to totally dismiss the thought that there was conspiracy between Roosevelt and Churchill. Roosevelt knew what needed to be done but wasn't seasoned enough to make it happen ..... Churchill was cunning and persuasive enough to have (perhaps) shown him the way.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:14 am
#48
Riding on silver wings
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
I can't imagine the Brits would compare Peal Harbor to the Blitz. The Blitz was an ongoing campaign lasting for months and months, changed a landscape, changed a country and killed thousands of more people than Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor was something that happened in just a few hours in a very specific and isolated area. Two totally different scenarios the only common strand is that they happened during the same war.
It may have been 2,500 miles away but it affected this country deeply. You could call it our first 9/11 in way that it affected our sense of security. They were Americans first and foremost. The geography between doesn't lessen that fact.
I was thinking more along the lines that Brits might still be pissed off that it took Pearl Harbor to actually get the US into the war effort but apparently (from the results of this thread anyway) nobody gives a turd any more.
You could say that this is a case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. I think today if we held the stance of keeping ourselves out of foreign affairs we would be lauded for that, but we don't. We learned our lesson from keeping that stance then. We reversed our stance and revisited the idea of Woodrow Wilson's League of Nations. A idea that was great at the time but lacked the support of the US. That being one of the myriad of reasons why it never lasted.
It may have been 2,500 miles away but it affected this country deeply. You could call it our first 9/11 in way that it affected our sense of security. They were Americans first and foremost. The geography between doesn't lessen that fact.
I was thinking more along the lines that Brits might still be pissed off that it took Pearl Harbor to actually get the US into the war effort but apparently (from the results of this thread anyway) nobody gives a turd any more.
You could say that this is a case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. I think today if we held the stance of keeping ourselves out of foreign affairs we would be lauded for that, but we don't. We learned our lesson from keeping that stance then. We reversed our stance and revisited the idea of Woodrow Wilson's League of Nations. A idea that was great at the time but lacked the support of the US. That being one of the myriad of reasons why it never lasted.
I should stop posting on this thread. I feel like I'm doing an essay. It's
Friday and I should be getting pissed instead of talking about history, which in my mind is filled with a bunch of revisions. Including mine.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:18 am
#50
WTF?
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
I'm not saying that the Europeans don't have a right to be angry that the US didn't come to their aid earlier. I'm not saying that all.
But bitching about that on a day when thousands lost their life in a surprise attack would seem disrespectful to me ... a bit like spitting on their graves on the aniversary of a tragedy. The men that died that day didn't make the decision to not come to the aid of the Brits, French, etc.
And though late, the Americans DID come to the aid of the allies. Sometimes it seems like this important fact is overlooked. Many lost their lives. It was the government's decision not to intervene earlier ... not that of the guys who were fighting. I realize I'm stating the obvious ... but sometimes the obvious seems to be forgotten.
Enough of that - no need to resurrect the 'my Dad is better than your Dad' WWII thread. I understand what you're saying and hopefully you get where I'm coming from too.
But bitching about that on a day when thousands lost their life in a surprise attack would seem disrespectful to me ... a bit like spitting on their graves on the aniversary of a tragedy. The men that died that day didn't make the decision to not come to the aid of the Brits, French, etc.
And though late, the Americans DID come to the aid of the allies. Sometimes it seems like this important fact is overlooked. Many lost their lives. It was the government's decision not to intervene earlier ... not that of the guys who were fighting. I realize I'm stating the obvious ... but sometimes the obvious seems to be forgotten.
Enough of that - no need to resurrect the 'my Dad is better than your Dad' WWII thread. I understand what you're saying and hopefully you get where I'm coming from too.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:19 am
#51
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
No, I don't expect reverence - I'm more interested in the significance.
From an American perspective it was a time in history that America was still reeling and recovering from WWI and the subsequent depression. The majority of American citizens were uneducated at the time and the voting public was still largely rural or blue collar. Isolationism was a natural response as the people were just tired and broke and scared. WW2 seem to be something that was far enough away that it would never effect their lives on a personal basis.
It was under the shadow of all of this that Roosevelt was elected. In his attempt to actually serve the wishes of constituency (something unheard of today) he was forced to stay out of the war even though he knew it was best that America join the war.
I think we'd be silly to totally dismiss the thought that there was conspiracy between Roosevelt and Churchill. Roosevelt knew what needed to be done but wasn't seasoned enough to make it happen ..... Churchill was cunning and persuasive enough to have (perhaps) shown him the way.
From an American perspective it was a time in history that America was still reeling and recovering from WWI and the subsequent depression. The majority of American citizens were uneducated at the time and the voting public was still largely rural or blue collar. Isolationism was a natural response as the people were just tired and broke and scared. WW2 seem to be something that was far enough away that it would never effect their lives on a personal basis.
It was under the shadow of all of this that Roosevelt was elected. In his attempt to actually serve the wishes of constituency (something unheard of today) he was forced to stay out of the war even though he knew it was best that America join the war.
I think we'd be silly to totally dismiss the thought that there was conspiracy between Roosevelt and Churchill. Roosevelt knew what needed to be done but wasn't seasoned enough to make it happen ..... Churchill was cunning and persuasive enough to have (perhaps) shown him the way.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:21 am
#52
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
Dec 8th 2007, 12:22 am
#53
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
I don't see why we can't discuss both. The deaths at Pearl Harbor were horrible.... but they are now a part of history. History should always be questioned and debated. There is no disrespect.... in fact total respect. Those that gave their lives that day did so for the sake of the entire world and the freedoms we enjoy today. The discussion and debate is over what the government did or did not do. Nothing would ever be said against the innocents that died.
Dec 8th 2007, 12:24 am
#54
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Dec 8th 2007, 12:26 am
#56
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Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
Today is Pearl Harbor Day in the US.
President Franklin D. Roosevelt: Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of American was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.
For those of you interested in the entire speech go here:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5166/
Any thoughts from the British point of view?
For those of you that were alive then .... any memories?
President Franklin D. Roosevelt: Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of American was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.
For those of you interested in the entire speech go here:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5166/
Any thoughts from the British point of view?
For those of you that were alive then .... any memories?
Dec 8th 2007, 12:28 am
#58
Riding on silver wings
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,543
Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
America finally got into the war. Took them 2 years to do it, even though I think the Secret Intelligence Service told them an attack was imminent. Thankfully they did enter the war on our side, without them we would be speaking a mix of German/Japanese right now
Dec 8th 2007, 12:30 am
#60
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Posts: 22,220
Re: A date which will live in infamy ....
Still the p-51 was kinda "quaint' in an antiquated sort of way.
Last edited by Rushman; Dec 8th 2007 at 12:32 am.