Critical Thinking and Debate in the US
 

Forking this from another thread....

I'm interested in how other people find this, whether my industry/company is a particular case, whether there is a systemic issue in American society, and what the root cause of this behaviour is (so that I can learn to deal with it before it drives me stir-fry crazy).

My job involves looking at 3-5 strategy. In order to do that, I need to take a long, cold, hard look at everything the company and industry is doing which includes being hyper-critical and taking really quite off-the-wall viewpoints.

I thought that here in the land of the whacky, if I asked anyone an opinion, or how things could be done differently, better or where they thought things should be in the future, for every 10 people, I'd get 20 answers and people champing at the bit to get things done.

To my utter astonishment (and frankly frustration which will drive me out of the country), amongst my American colleagues, there seems to be a total inability to think the unthinkable, or make any kind of critical, independent judgment. Most answers I get seem to be predicated on how things are and ever more shall be.

Ask people to think of the worst broken procedure and then go away and fix it and it's liked you've asked them to go an insult their own mother !

My European staff have absolutely no issue in telling me what's wrong and how to fix it - some even go away and try to fix it, but because we're part of a big American mothership, 9 times out of 10, it is US HQ that stops things being done.

And when they do present anything, instead of being a well-written, argued essay with introduction, argument and conclusion with actions, it's a pathetic 5 slide PowerPoint in Corporate colours; pretty, but void of content.

In the words of the great Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Free-ow, man; what's gives ?"

What is it that stops these people, most in the mid 30s-early 40s so at the peak of their careers, from actually doing something radical. These are intelligent, well-educated people.

The only person that I find is willing to do anything is on his second career having retired on full pension and medical from the Navy a few years back.

Please help me out - the lack of willingness to criticise, change, take risks or just discuss is "doing my 'ead in."

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The resistance to change, particularly in large heririchical organisations, so something I have experienced in the civil service here in the UK. People want to change, know it needs to be done, and yet find any excuse to delay it or to deem in unnessacery.

I actually think its just part of the human condition, we are familiar with what we know, and there is a level of comfort. The unknown, if misunderstood, is frightening.

Fear drives people in strange ways.

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America is an highly litigious society and everyone wants to save their neck.

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When you are a young worker in the US, you tend to believe management when they ask for new ideas, different ways of doing things, etc. As you continue in your career, you realize this isn't the case. Also it is seen as in some way criticizing the entity you work for or the specific boss (this happened to me when I was young in my second job, unknowingly to me at the time and I honestly still believe that affects references from that job because that boss has moved higher up the chain). Continued suggestions will be seen as complaints at some point and in the US that employee will become a target and usually terminated. That's why so many American workers have the saying "keep your mouth shut and your head down". We know when upper management asks for suggestions they usually don't want them. It's like when native-born Americans say to someone, "oh, we should really get together sometime and do x,y,z". I know as a native-born person that this specific phrase really means "yeah, we both agree that we should do something together socially, but we are both acknowledging right know that we aren't ever going to do x,y,z and let's move on with our conversation". My British husband was perplexed by this concept when he first arrived ten years ago--he's "been assimilated" now, lol.

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This. My ability to actually do the important things, ask important questions, and produce meaningful content has landed me a job doing "change management" and creating training for internal clients of the project management group of a large international corporation. I'm not the most important person in the group (I'm the newest actually), and I don't think I'm anything special. But my brother, who designs online training for diverse clients of another massive international company, and I have discussed the very complaint voiced by the OP. We think we are fortunate to have become reasonably successful instead of disaffected by our frustration with willful know-nothings. We honestly think it's genetics as well as upbringing because we never, ever thought we'd wind up doing anything like the same sort of job.

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I can not comment on the US, but in the UK if you have been around long enough and been through enough reorganisations you have completed the circle a few times so are inevitably a bit blasé.

The best thing since white bread is just another piece of bread.

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I've worked (with Americans) in factories, on building sites and in offices for over 20yrs now.
My own conclusion is that they don't like change and are very suspicious of anything foreign to their way of thinking.
What's more, they tend to be very compliant with any authority which uses patriotism. Odd when you consider the country's origin..........

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As I posted on the other thread, I find this too. The very concept of "having a process" is alien to many in my organisation and others we have dealt with. And in my case, I find I'm dealing with relatively young organisations rather than old established ones.

The previous example I posted is of spending two days with a contractor trying to nail down what their process was to get from A to Z, as they seemed dreadfully inefficient to us and were holding us up. They just couldn't grasp what we were getting at, we just kept having to say "and what do you do next". Two bloody days. Just so we could map out the process in front of them and point out (the bleeding obvious to us) that they could actually get from A to Z in 5 steps instead if they just thought about it.

It was like we were talking Swahili or something.

In my organisation there are several business things that are just not getting done, and it's killing me that they're not. The problem is that they are cross-functional and cross-country so I just can't do them myself. We need to get people round a table and agree a process before we do it. The management can't see a problem and when I have put the case to them about why this needs to happen, again there is bafflement and total incomprehension. Colleagues agree something needs to happen, but it never does.

The thing that I find even more baffling is that there are legal things that we must do due to the industry we're in, and we have processes sorted for all of that! We just can't seem to carry on to business things, and it's going to bite us in the bum big time. Being able to say "told you so" gives me no satisfaction at all.

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Interesting what you say about young workers. I find that to be true. I have two young staff, newish graduates, and they are fortunately still in the phase of thinking they can do everything better than it was done before. Now, how to keep that....

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The writing problem and creation of a thought-out argument/presentation is everywhere. I think there must be less of it in schools and not only do people not want to do it they don't want to read it either. I still get told to rewrite such things that I produce and just use a couple of three-line paragraphs and a lot of bullet points. It's hard to make a convincing case for anything that way. You just have to remember your audience, and use the methods that will work for them - so I try to combine written with a lot of talking, and have it carefully thought out ahead of time so that they are't overwhelmed. Full arguments often overwhelm them - go step by step and walk them through it.

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:nod:

Its probably where I'm going wrong. I hear "gosh, that's um er comprehensive" for a 1 page memo.

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Sounds like any large organisation, most large Private Companies and all Governmental.

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Lion. It's become a Power-Point business-culture.

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I refer you to a comment I made yesterday on another thread when I said there appears to be a large degree of fatalism about this and accepting that the problem is too big to fix, so why bother trying.

It's extremely frustrating to those of us who came here expecting that there would be a higher degree of innovation in the country that 40 years ago was putting human beings on the moon.

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When I have to do presentations I make the slides really pretty to keep people entertained, then I talk so I can actually get full points across. It's definitely a case of adapting to what works for your audience. I hate power point myself, because when I write I think carefully and revise and revise until it's just right - but then nobody reads it so it's a pointless exercise. I just have to try to remember everything I want to say and then deliver it. It certainly helps here that I sound English - people listen better because I sound different.

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And anything over one page is right out.

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Times change, this comment about the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire has resonance:

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Oh my goodness - so much very useful insight ! Thank you - at least I now know it's not just me.

Specific points:

Yes, but this:

My company blathers on ad nauseum about how "it is a flat organisation" and "you can knock on anyone's door at any time." In the UK part of the company, that is mostly true, save a few people that are so far up their own backsides, they sit down to brush their teeth.

But HERE ? FLAT ?? No Way. We have a highly class-structured informal system. I was told early on "Tell the Big Boss everything is great - she does not want to be told there is trouble - it will not help us."

I sort-of expect hierachy and pecking-orders in old-fashioned, government-type organisations; but in a young (20+ year old) IT company ????

Last sentence. Yes - the whole country was built by founders that just out of sheer bloody-mindedness bucked the norms of the day and said "sod you, we're off." That spirit appears to have dispersed completely. Is this a late 20th Century-on facet of American society ? Because as the poster mentioned about the moon landings, I can't believe that anyone would have pushed American technology forward that far in the 1950s in today's work environment.

As I said, if the people I was working with were as daft as two short ones, I could excuse all of this. They're not ! They're MUCH more intelligent than me. I feel an idiot most of the time.

And here is ANOTHER area that confuses me. Looking at my son's education (6th Grade), it is actually quite good, at least in the areas of Math(s) and English. Lots of back-to-basics grammar, structure, descriptive and persuasive writing - all the areas I'd expect any graduate engineer to excel at.

So, again, people tell me "it's the education system" but at the moment I don't see it.

There is a lack of soft-subjects in the education (no Art, no Music) which does concern me - those subjects don't have right/wrong answers and teach criticism and appreciation.

Maybe if we were to go on to High School the differences would start to show - but again, I hear that High Schools have debating societies....

My own conclusions so far are three fold:

1) Health care trumps everything. You have to have a job at any price, so you keep shtum and put up with crap. This also leads to huge over-employment (yes, there are too many people doing pointless jobs) because the by product of having a much higher unemployment rate would be a much higher proportion of Americans without health-coverage and some embarrassing statistics for the government.....

2) Pensions are linked to employer. You need one ideally that has retiree health benefits, so don't put your position in jeopardy.... Linked to 1)

3) In IT, a large percentage are on temporary Visas from countries they'd rather not go back to. They are sh*t scared that saying the wrong thing will get them sent back in a jot, and this is not just (as with me) a chance to see a different country and then go home - this is a short-cut to a better quality of life for them and generations that follow. Fine, but..... It has created a subservient and compliant workforce.

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Tell me about it. I design interactive PowerPoint training courses. I started doing it because I couldn't get buy-in from the official Training department; they wanted to run my show and I told them where to shove it, and they told me where to shove my request for more sophisticated software. So I made PP do what I wanted it to, dammit. :hand:

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The actual history and character of the founding Fathers has been repackaged and redefined. It will amaze you to read some of the things they thought and said. As for the moon landings, it was tied to a patriotic drive and fear of Communism. Lets not forget, the yanks took a bloody car up there with them.............
One word *FEAR*. Many people do jobs they otherwise would not do or are not cut out for.
There is no such thing as a company pension anymore in the US. The rare occasion you may come across one, is indeed, very, very rare. Its all about money.

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With respect, these two sentences contradict each other.

Ian

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Pension - yes, sorry, I meant the company 401(k) plan and the tied retiree health coverage.

But I completely understand your point on fear. I end up having conversations over coffee with people that are no different from the observations people make in the UK, NL, BE, DE. The difference is that here, ask people to follow-through, make that observation publicly and take a more senior person to task, it just doesn't happen.

Tell an American that you've arranged for them to see their bosses boss to chat about things, and they turn to custard. Tell a European the same, and you can't stop them talking.

But again, I find this at odds with all I think about in Silicon Valley. The whole culture is built on risk and chance, so fear must be a huge part of that. There is always the risk of failure, and 90% of start-ups fail. That is the nature of the beast.

All very, very odd.....

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I came here in 1966 as part of the "Technology Drain" that overlapped/followed the "Brain Drain". At that time, because of the need to get the most out of fuel, multistage turbines were used in UK and Europe, but not here because fuel was available and cheap. In time, they needed multistage machines here, they hired experts from the UK. One man that I used to meet at Brit parties, complained that he would tell them how a certain element was made and he would be voted down because, "It can't possibly work that way." He stayed because he was working on his PhD, at Penn I think.

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Interesting discussion about “critical thinking skills”.

In our company, our department has an international teleconference call on a weekly basis to discuss large projects with our colleagues around the world. Employees from the U.S., Canada, Brazil, Australia, Belgium, Germany and the U.K. all call in.

There is a U.K. manager who is a stickler for conformity, a real martinet. He constantly demands that everything is done uniformly (by this, he usually means his way). Recently, he was going on and on about using a silly-ass form that conferred absolutely no value to anyone, including his people in the U.K. I ventured to say, “But this form doesn’t add any value to any of our various departments”, to which he snapped “Whether it adds any value is beside the point – we all have to do things the same way to be consistent”.

Critical thinking, indeed.

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I work in a perpetually changing organization - change comes from all directions externally as well as changes generated internally, and trying persuade colleagues that they need to change what they do, how they do it, and/or when they do it can be painful. In fairness most people are OK with change, some embrace it, .... others just want a fight about it! :frown:

The problem I have is that much of the time my only tool is "persuasion", and their "lack of budget" trumps my "persuasion". A recent promotion gave me some gatekeeper control over an authorization procedure, so if they don't engage with me to agree a plan they don't get their document approved, and that can cause them problems with other people who carry a bigger stick than I do. :sneaky:

More often, my recommendations get escalated to my boss, and occasionally to his boss, and the result is "management buy in", which trumps their "lack of budget". :D

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A good description of what happens in most organisations, including those who insist that they do not have politics in their organisation...;)

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You've got cynics, who've been on this trip before and know it won't change anyway.
Then you've got those who know that if a change happens then it means more work and stress for them.

My company recently underwent some ISO process qualification thingy and it was a knightmare. We were meant to just document our procedures, but certain people documented them too well (or at least too detailed, or incorrect for different departments) and we were being audited against stupid little things that made no difference. Luckily, after numerous protests, the processes are being simplified to give people room to do what they used to and cut corners where it is okay to cut them. A very expensive mistake for the company.

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There is a knack to writing procedures that give an accurate set of instructions on what to do, but without telling you what to have for breakfast along the way. Precise, but at the same time, vague. Consistent and yet flexible. I quite enjoy it. ;)

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Did it involve men in suits of armour riding around on horseback, skewering people with lances? :confused:

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No, one guy in a helmet who can't see where he is going, being told what to do by people who don't know what's going on. 80s tv nostalgia.

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My sister said to me that she thinks it is because Germans were the largest white European immigrant group and so Americans have this deference towards authority that Germans had. I think she has a point because I don't find it as much among the latino Americans I meet.

You only have to look at the road system, Americans are reactive rather than proactive drivers.

Michael Moore made a movie about it as I recall.

Certainly I don't find it in Canada as much and obviously the British and French were the largest immigrant groups here.

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Germans (42.8m) are the biggest ancestry group but only because those who originated from Great Britain and Ireland are spit into separate groups - Irish (30.5m), English (24.5m), Scots (4.9m), Welsh (1.9m) and Scots Irish (4.3). A further complication is that the 2000 census had an 'American' ethnicity added which 20.2m people declared (ethnicity has since been removed from censuses and will no longer be recorded). Since the numbers of people declaring themselves as English in 1980 (49m) dropped by 20m it is likely that a lot of these people - mostly whites in the South - switched ethnicity to American though a lot of these could also be Scots-Irish.

That means a large chunk of the US is made up of English, Scots, Welsh and Irish - none of whom are known for their deference to authority.

There is a large deceleration of German ethnicity in the upper Midwest and there is a deference to authority in German culture which arose out of the Prussian virtues of Frederick William's court - however these did not become established in the whole of Germany until after the founding of the German Empire in 1871. A large number of German immigrants arrived before then - including the 48-ers who had participated in or supported the rebellions of 1848. It's possible that later immigrants brought a culture of Prussian values with them but German-Americans have been noted for their assimilation.

I think if you look back at what the average Brit was thinking in the early 20th century you'll see plenty of blind nationalism, deference to authority and Victorian masculinity. The reason that declined in our culture is the impact of the 1st world war which brought in a mood of disillusionment and cynicism. I think that explains why the two countries have different attitudes to patriotism.

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Not sure about that - the main "issues" I have are with Americans that definitely aren't from a German or even a European background.

Given the ethnic mix of Silicon Valley, I am constantly surprised that those that tell me they have qualifications far in advance of mine are far more likely to be deferential to their manager, authority in general and take a very short-term view of the world.

Being blunt, Latinos don't figure. But interestingly, the MAJORITY of senior leaders that we have are from the areas of the heavily German influenced areas of the country, so maybe you are onto something....

More and more I'm putting this down to the toxic situation with health-care, house prices and education. Although salaries in the Valley are good, even when you're earning $150k+, paying $25k/child for education, $5-10k per family for health "care," and an average of $2800/month for rent is crippling.

I find that my co-workers would rather say nothing than say something that could undermine that already precarious financial position.

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But you are asking them to give some insight into how the business could be run better though right? Surely that's not something that could put your job at risk. In fact it's more of a risk not to say anything since it shows you aren't putting much thought into how the organization you work for runs. Plus the negative comments are usually anonymized anyway in these type of reviews.

I would say it's three things:

1) I'm assuming you are still an outsider at this stage and - while they are fine with complaining to their colleagues about the work situation - they might be reluctant to share their thoughts with you

2) Bigorganizationitus - there comes a point where a company gets large, accumulates a lot of staff and managers and then sinks into a terminal decline having lost momentum and strategic flexibility - I keep seeing this over and over again in the US and UK and it is one of the things that makes me nervous about our company's growth. You mentioned colleagues that were fine with opening up about the company but these seem to be in the smaller off-shoots not the main operation.

3) You mentioned that the company says they operated a 'flat management structure' but in practice doesn't. If that's the case then the company doesn't have a culture of soliciting employees opinions which explains why the employees are suspicious.

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Lots of generalizations here that I'm not sure are warrented. This varies widely by industry and company. I've personally seen huge variations even within the same company. I currently work for a large financial services company. I've been here for ~12 years. Certain areas I've been in involve constant status meeting, top-down micromanagement, kowtowing to the big man (or woman), fear of rocking the boat and love of conformity. When I was more junior, I had people sit behind me while I assembled a financial model, critiquing every step. This is nerve-wracking and pointless.

Other areas here (like my current area) have an entrepreneurial, see your boss once every two weeks, you figure it out, do the analysis and propose a solution, everyone contributes culture. It generally comes down to the management style of the boss and the type of job function. Your seniority plays a huge role as well.

Here in banking, highly process-driven areas like corporate finance, risk, analytics and FP&A are usually pretty top down. This makes some sense given the nature of the work. Marketing, operations and technology are generally more flat and open.

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Well everything like this is a generalization, but the fact so many of us have noticed it means it is somewhat prevalent.

Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it.

I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right.

But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different.

But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?

For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty.

So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue...

Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live.

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Wow, so much to respond to!

1. Steve: "Well everything like this is a generalization, but the fact so many of us have noticed it means it is somewhat prevalent."

- or, coming from other countries, you just have other ways of viewing both social and business activities, and just ASSUME your processes are better. (You were somewhat right with the first part, however - it is a GROSS generalization.)

2. Steve: "Another point made to me various times by various people is that many Americans actually truly believe the stereotype that America is the best country in the world, so by definition they think what they are doing must be the best way to do it."

- And of course, the British have never, ever believed the stereotype that the UK what the greatest nation on earth, and that the only way to do things is the "Propah British" way.

3. Steve: "I always think Dick Cheney is an example of this mindset because of the war in Iraq: we're America, we're better than you, ergo we know better than you and we must be right."

- You just recently planted the British version of Dick Cheney - her name was Maggie Thatcher. (In fact, your whole little rant is a shining example of the Brit / Canadian attitude of "We're so much better than everyone else.")

4. Steve: "But this is also the mindset that leads to various terrorist groups hating America, they sit and watch American TV and listen to all this "America is the best" claptrap too but to them it is offensive because their culture is so different."

- Steve,WHAT !! Are you even reading the illogical "claptrap" you are posting? Why on earth should national pride be a cause for nations to hate other nations? (Are you trying to justify the Irish bombings in England? YOUR post could be said to apply in regard to that relationship also.)

5. Steve: "But anyway if you think you are the best, what motivation is there to change?"

- I have often heard Canadians claim that they lived in "The best country in the world" - is this your condemnation of Canada?

6. Steve: "For example I was watching CNN yesterday and they were explaining how this terrorist in Boston would get a lawyer free of charge, an example of what makes America great, but they probably won't get him out of the death penalty. So to an American that statement makes perfect sense, but as a foreigner watching it, I think, well most countries give free representation to the defendant and in most other countries there is no death penalty, so it wouldn't even be an issue..."

- So, you feel that the death penalty is wrong. I think it is wrong for the U.S. to have to warehouse a premeditated murderer for the next 60+ years, at our tax expense. If it is found that he intentionally sought to kill people, then he should forfeit HIS life.

7. Steve :Americans just seem to laugh off things like international comparisons of education that show the US is lowly ranked, or infant mortality, etc. It's like they don't quite believe it. Or if they do believe it, they justify it to themselves by saying, well that's only in Mississippi or some other place where they don't live."

- And yet, tens of tousands, even hundreds of thousands, of foreigners every year still flock to attend American colleges and universities. Not something you care to mention, is it?

__________________
Steve: "Canada - America without the bullshit."

My take - "Canada - America except with a raging inferiority complex."

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Nah - I think you have this backwards. Americans flip out when international comparisons show the US isn't number one in education & both political parties use the league tables to push their own political agenda (e.g crushing the teachers unions).

In fact there are relatively few reputable measures for comparing school systems worldwide and the biggest one is the OECD PISA survey, which is very limited in terms of sample size and will show up varied data depending on where the children were in the country which was sampled etc.. In any event the OECD figures show the States in at 14th or 17th in the rankings depending on what measures you are comparing. This is actually above the OECD average and although it's below Canada, Iceland, Finland, Korea etc, it's above Germany, Ireland, France and the UK. Furthermore the scores awarded are actually pretty close so there isn't a vast difference between the top ranked countries. In fact the countries tend to move up and down the league tables every time a new survey is released.

When it comes to infant mortality, the US ranks low among developed nations - however the measure used for this is totally inconsistent between countries which makes comparisons tricky. The US follows the stricter measure given by the United Nations Statistics Division and thereby does poorer in the rankings than it otherwise would.

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Got nothing to do with "processes", it's to do with what the OP said. And this isn't just some casual observation from a first impression, I've spent many years in the US and have US qualifications, family etc.

What have the British got to do with it. We're talking about Americans. But yes, the British are the world's most opinionated people on subjects they know nothing about, which is imo why they took over a quarter of the world... but the US is definitely now the heir apparent.

Once again, what have the British got to do with it. Having an observation about the British doesn't invalidate an observation about Americans. I wasn't ranting either, I've actually met Dick Cheney in person so I think I've likely got a better idea of what he's like than you do. I was never a big fan of Thatcher frankly for similar reasons.

Because American media is predominant throughout the world, everyone watches American TV. Yes I agree jingoism is throughout the world too but American jingoism is more prevalent globally. It rubs people in other countries the wrong way. We all know that the statement "America is the greatest country in the world" needs to be taken with a mighty pinch of salt because we're familiar with America in person but they aren't, they often see it as an attack on their culture. And national pride btw has often led to pointless wars.

There's no way you can compare Canadian nationalism to American nationalism, no way, no how. It's not even remotely in the same league. Although now you mention it I do find it somewhat ironic how many American TV shows are shot in Canada and Americans by and large don't realize what they're looking at are locations in Canada.

Comment had nothing to do with the death penalty, had to do with the apparent lack of knowledge of the commentator about anything outside of the US, i.e. that the US was somehow special in giving him a public defender. Just so happens it wouldn't be as big of an issue in most other countries because there is no death penalty. Nor is there in Massachusetts for that matter, takes the feds to swoop in for that.

As they do to colleges in the UK, Australia and elsewhere, not a terribly relevant comment because the rankings are supposed to be objective, your comment is subjective. No-one disputes that Americans are pretty good at marketing, American universities have better marketing, perhaps? Especially as universities in other countries receive more in the way of funding from taxpayers.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...e-degrees?lite

Not a particularly good indication of the superiority of American higher education, is it?