CA DL for those on visit visas
Oct 18th 2006, 5:29 pm
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Boiler wrote:
> > Nilda wrote:
[..]
get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips back, the
> POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart from other
> things as they were suspicious.
> He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting the US.
Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
get another one, not to mention costly?
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> > Nilda wrote:
[..]
get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips back, the
> POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart from other
> things as they were suspicious.
> He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting the US.
Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
get another one, not to mention costly?
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Oct 18th 2006, 5:29 pm
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Boiler wrote:
> > What is a visit visa?
>
> B?
B.
> VWP?
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> > What is a visit visa?
>
> B?
B.
> VWP?
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Oct 18th 2006, 6:17 pm
#18
BE Site Lead
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 92,172
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Originally Posted by Amanda
Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
get another one, not to mention costly?
Oct 18th 2006, 6:31 pm
#19
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Originally Posted by Amanda
Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
get another one, not to mention costly?
around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
get another one, not to mention costly?
A long time since I had a permit but I do not remember it being large, if this is an issue rent a larger vehicle?
Do not lose it would seem to be the obvious answer, but that would apply wherever you are.
Oct 18th 2006, 8:29 pm
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Amanda wrote on 10/18/06 10:25:
> Joe Feise wrote:
>> Elvira wrote on 10/16/06 15:16:
>>>> What are the laws on applying for DL in CA for those on visit visa? I
>>>> can't find the info at dmv's website
>>> You cannot get a CA DL on a tourist visa or WVP
>> That's not true. You normally need an SSN, and visitors don't get SSNs anymore.
>> But if a visitor has an SSN (was possible in the 90ies) or with a letter from
>> the SSA, it is possible to get a DL in CA.
>
> What should the letter from SSN says if the visitor doesn't have SSN?
I was thinking about the standard letter that people get if they don't qualify
for an SSN, e.g., people on H4.
>> I know people who got DLs as B2 visitors.
>
> Do they have SSN? How long ago was that?
Yes, that was in the 90ies, when visitors could still get SSNs. I don't know
recent cases.
-Joe
--
I am not a lawyer.
For reliable advice, consult a competent immigration attorney.
> Joe Feise wrote:
>> Elvira wrote on 10/16/06 15:16:
>>>> What are the laws on applying for DL in CA for those on visit visa? I
>>>> can't find the info at dmv's website
>>> You cannot get a CA DL on a tourist visa or WVP
>> That's not true. You normally need an SSN, and visitors don't get SSNs anymore.
>> But if a visitor has an SSN (was possible in the 90ies) or with a letter from
>> the SSA, it is possible to get a DL in CA.
>
> What should the letter from SSN says if the visitor doesn't have SSN?
I was thinking about the standard letter that people get if they don't qualify
for an SSN, e.g., people on H4.
>> I know people who got DLs as B2 visitors.
>
> Do they have SSN? How long ago was that?
Yes, that was in the 90ies, when visitors could still get SSNs. I don't know
recent cases.
-Joe
--
I am not a lawyer.
For reliable advice, consult a competent immigration attorney.
Oct 18th 2006, 9:38 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
It was March 2004 when I tried getting a DL from CA... They put a note on my permit that I need to take the behind the wheel exam before the tourist visa expired which is 6 months though I was driving too using my International License from the Philippines while I was waiting for my CA DL.... They asked me why I need one since I have an International License. I told them that i am in the US almost every year and its so costly and I also want the CA Driver's licence to be an ID too.. I told them I dont want to risk loosing my passport if I will use it as my ID. I tried doing this at La Palma and I wasnt able to...but I tried it to another city and they allowed me. They also put on the ID that it doesnt allow the person to work using the DL.
i tried applying for an SSN too that time but they didnt allowed me.
I really dont know...maybe they are more strict now.
JM.
---
posted via:
http://www.visaforyou.org/eng/
i tried applying for an SSN too that time but they didnt allowed me.
I really dont know...maybe they are more strict now.
JM.
---
posted via:
http://www.visaforyou.org/eng/
Oct 18th 2006, 10:34 pm
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Boiler wrote:
> I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips back, the
> POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart from other
> things as they were suspicious.
> He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting the US.
Well, the first thing that comes to mind, is to get a DL in any random
state, you must provide an address. One exception that I know of, is
Oregon. I have a US friend in Oregon who has a state ID (or license,
not sure) as "continuous traveller" because he was permanently
domiciled in Oregon as his US residence (living with one parent or the
other, or friends when he came back), but kept coming up to Canada
since he was seeing a friend of mine. Canada didn't care about his
frequent trips the way the US does with opposite situations, even
though he didn't have a return ticket sometimes... as long as he didn't
work while he was here and had enough funds, no problem.
So if you get a US DL in any state, it's because you have an address.
Although the DMV isn't likely to question the applicant too closely so
long as they meet whatever the requirements are, the POE might see
things rather differently.
Reading this thread got me thinking of that because at one particular
crossing the POE Inspector freaked out on me because I have a US bank
account. Under whatever training she received, she believes only people
with an SSN have a bank account in the US. So that resulted in some
time in chairs while waiting for it to be sorted out. I got a notorized
letter from my bank (at the advice of her supervisor, to prevent future
hassle), that states my account is foreign status, no SSN required. All
mail is directed to my home in Canada.
I have my reasons, including that it's very handy, and was
exceptionally handy to hold all my US dollars while I was travelling
for a month. It's also good for doing online things, and receiving
money from Paypal, etc, when I do online auctions/sales. The POE
Supervisor was satisfied of my reasons, even though the Primary
Inspection officer was suspicious (because she didn't understand what I
was telling her). She told me she visits Canada and just brings US
currency to spend as cash and doesn't have a problem. (Yeah, cross
border towns can be like that... I don't think they'd have taken
Canadian cash for payment at a grocery store or motel in Utah).
S.
> I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips back, the
> POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart from other
> things as they were suspicious.
> He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting the US.
Well, the first thing that comes to mind, is to get a DL in any random
state, you must provide an address. One exception that I know of, is
Oregon. I have a US friend in Oregon who has a state ID (or license,
not sure) as "continuous traveller" because he was permanently
domiciled in Oregon as his US residence (living with one parent or the
other, or friends when he came back), but kept coming up to Canada
since he was seeing a friend of mine. Canada didn't care about his
frequent trips the way the US does with opposite situations, even
though he didn't have a return ticket sometimes... as long as he didn't
work while he was here and had enough funds, no problem.
So if you get a US DL in any state, it's because you have an address.
Although the DMV isn't likely to question the applicant too closely so
long as they meet whatever the requirements are, the POE might see
things rather differently.
Reading this thread got me thinking of that because at one particular
crossing the POE Inspector freaked out on me because I have a US bank
account. Under whatever training she received, she believes only people
with an SSN have a bank account in the US. So that resulted in some
time in chairs while waiting for it to be sorted out. I got a notorized
letter from my bank (at the advice of her supervisor, to prevent future
hassle), that states my account is foreign status, no SSN required. All
mail is directed to my home in Canada.
I have my reasons, including that it's very handy, and was
exceptionally handy to hold all my US dollars while I was travelling
for a month. It's also good for doing online things, and receiving
money from Paypal, etc, when I do online auctions/sales. The POE
Supervisor was satisfied of my reasons, even though the Primary
Inspection officer was suspicious (because she didn't understand what I
was telling her). She told me she visits Canada and just brings US
currency to spend as cash and doesn't have a problem. (Yeah, cross
border towns can be like that... I don't think they'd have taken
Canadian cash for payment at a grocery store or motel in Utah).
S.
Oct 18th 2006, 10:42 pm
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
As far as I knew, CA required the SSN, but that may have changed since
I was there (in 2000-2002, not continuously... separate trips). When I
got to CA the first time, I went into a store and tried to use my Visa,
but because it was International, they wanted two pieces of ID. I only
had my passport, which for a long time was my only ID I owned. They
wouldn't take anything that was okay for using in Canada because I
lived in Quebec, and everything was only in French, or they didn't
recognize what it was (like the type of ID).
I called the DMV and said that I was staying with a friend for two
months and didn't have any ID but a passport that people would accept,
could I get one for the two months and use my friend's address? They
said I needed an SSN. Sometime around 1999 the rules were changed so
people like me who were visiting wouldn't be allowed to have one (even
if it's marked "not for work purposes"). I don't know why that changed,
but it did. I didn't have a driver's license back then, but I got one a
while later (a learner's license) to use as photo ID when I needed more
than one piece.
I don't doubt there's valid reasons... and I'm sure being from Canada
I'm less screwed than you are (having to fly home). At worst, I take a
bus to Niagara Falls and walk across the bridge. I tell the guy at the
POE I'm Canadian and lost all my ID. At worst, I suffer detention, but
that's all they can do to me. And since I have my Canadian Citzenship
Certificate at my house, my spouse can always drive to the border with
that and get me, or meet me there, should that happen.
But I'm suggesting this from the POE's perspective... If you have a
regular address you return to in the US every year, and have a valid
Visa for whatever you're doing, and are domiciled in CA, then it stands
to reason you should be allowed a state ID if you actually live there.
Even if you can't work while in the US, that shouldn't matter, the
point is, you live there and have legal status. If you're not living
there or have an address there, and the POE thinks you're getting the
ID for some invalid purpose, that's going to cause problems.
S.
Nilda wrote:
> It was March 2004 when I tried getting a DL from CA... They put a note on my permit that I need to take the behind the wheel exam before the tourist visa expired which is 6 months though I was driving too using my International License from the Philippines while I was waiting for my CA DL.... They asked me why I need one since I have an International License. I told them that i am in the US almost every year and its so costly and I also want the CA Driver's licence to be an ID too.. I told them I dont want to risk loosing my passport if I will use it as my ID. I tried doing this at La Palma and I wasnt able to...but I tried it to another city and they allowed me. They also put on the ID that it doesnt allow the person to work using the DL.
> i tried applying for an SSN too that time but they didnt allowed me.
> I really dont know...maybe they are more strict now.
>
> JM.
>
> ---
> posted via:
> http://www.visaforyou.org/eng/
I was there (in 2000-2002, not continuously... separate trips). When I
got to CA the first time, I went into a store and tried to use my Visa,
but because it was International, they wanted two pieces of ID. I only
had my passport, which for a long time was my only ID I owned. They
wouldn't take anything that was okay for using in Canada because I
lived in Quebec, and everything was only in French, or they didn't
recognize what it was (like the type of ID).
I called the DMV and said that I was staying with a friend for two
months and didn't have any ID but a passport that people would accept,
could I get one for the two months and use my friend's address? They
said I needed an SSN. Sometime around 1999 the rules were changed so
people like me who were visiting wouldn't be allowed to have one (even
if it's marked "not for work purposes"). I don't know why that changed,
but it did. I didn't have a driver's license back then, but I got one a
while later (a learner's license) to use as photo ID when I needed more
than one piece.
I don't doubt there's valid reasons... and I'm sure being from Canada
I'm less screwed than you are (having to fly home). At worst, I take a
bus to Niagara Falls and walk across the bridge. I tell the guy at the
POE I'm Canadian and lost all my ID. At worst, I suffer detention, but
that's all they can do to me. And since I have my Canadian Citzenship
Certificate at my house, my spouse can always drive to the border with
that and get me, or meet me there, should that happen.
But I'm suggesting this from the POE's perspective... If you have a
regular address you return to in the US every year, and have a valid
Visa for whatever you're doing, and are domiciled in CA, then it stands
to reason you should be allowed a state ID if you actually live there.
Even if you can't work while in the US, that shouldn't matter, the
point is, you live there and have legal status. If you're not living
there or have an address there, and the POE thinks you're getting the
ID for some invalid purpose, that's going to cause problems.
S.
Nilda wrote:
> It was March 2004 when I tried getting a DL from CA... They put a note on my permit that I need to take the behind the wheel exam before the tourist visa expired which is 6 months though I was driving too using my International License from the Philippines while I was waiting for my CA DL.... They asked me why I need one since I have an International License. I told them that i am in the US almost every year and its so costly and I also want the CA Driver's licence to be an ID too.. I told them I dont want to risk loosing my passport if I will use it as my ID. I tried doing this at La Palma and I wasnt able to...but I tried it to another city and they allowed me. They also put on the ID that it doesnt allow the person to work using the DL.
> i tried applying for an SSN too that time but they didnt allowed me.
> I really dont know...maybe they are more strict now.
>
> JM.
>
> ---
> posted via:
> http://www.visaforyou.org/eng/
Oct 19th 2006, 3:52 am
#24
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
The post is about Visitors, not people living in California.
Those who do live there but for example are not eligible to get a SSN - H4, can get a letter from SSN stating that.
Those who do live there but for example are not eligible to get a SSN - H4, can get a letter from SSN stating that.
Oct 19th 2006, 2:40 pm
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Joe Feise wrote:
> Amanda wrote on 10/18/06 10:25:
> > Joe Feise wrote:
> >> Elvira wrote on 10/16/06 15:16:
> >>
> >>>> What are the laws on applying for DL in CA for those on visit visa? I
> >>>> can't find the info at dmv's website
> >>> You cannot get a CA DL on a tourist visa or WVP
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's not true. You normally need an SSN, and visitors don't get SSNs anymore.
> >> But if a visitor has an SSN (was possible in the 90ies) or with a letter from
> >> the SSA, it is possible to get a DL in CA.
> >
> > What should the letter from SSN says if the visitor doesn't have SSN?
> I was thinking about the standard letter that people get if they don't qualify
> for an SSN, e.g., people on H4.
I see.
> >> I know people who got DLs as B2 visitors.
> >
> > Do they have SSN? How long ago was that?
> Yes, that was in the 90ies, when visitors could still get SSNs. I don't know
> recent cases.
I was aware that it was like that those days. I don't know what the
rule are these days. I called DMV main number 3 times and when they
told me that there was anew law, I asked for the website where I could
read it but the first oen hung up on me and the second one said it's at
DMV. I didn't even bother asking the third one. If I apend enough time
and go to a law libray, I may find the new rule or lack thereof. May be
I'll do that in December when I have some times.
> -Joe
> --
> I am not a lawyer.
> For reliable advice, consult a competent immigration attorney.
> Amanda wrote on 10/18/06 10:25:
> > Joe Feise wrote:
> >> Elvira wrote on 10/16/06 15:16:
> >>
> >>>> What are the laws on applying for DL in CA for those on visit visa? I
> >>>> can't find the info at dmv's website
> >>> You cannot get a CA DL on a tourist visa or WVP
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's not true. You normally need an SSN, and visitors don't get SSNs anymore.
> >> But if a visitor has an SSN (was possible in the 90ies) or with a letter from
> >> the SSA, it is possible to get a DL in CA.
> >
> > What should the letter from SSN says if the visitor doesn't have SSN?
> I was thinking about the standard letter that people get if they don't qualify
> for an SSN, e.g., people on H4.
I see.
> >> I know people who got DLs as B2 visitors.
> >
> > Do they have SSN? How long ago was that?
> Yes, that was in the 90ies, when visitors could still get SSNs. I don't know
> recent cases.
I was aware that it was like that those days. I don't know what the
rule are these days. I called DMV main number 3 times and when they
told me that there was anew law, I asked for the website where I could
read it but the first oen hung up on me and the second one said it's at
DMV. I didn't even bother asking the third one. If I apend enough time
and go to a law libray, I may find the new rule or lack thereof. May be
I'll do that in December when I have some times.
> -Joe
> --
> I am not a lawyer.
> For reliable advice, consult a competent immigration attorney.
Oct 19th 2006, 2:42 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Bob wrote:
> > Boiler wrote:
> > > > Nilda wrote:
> > [..]
> >
> > get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> > > I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips
> > > back, the
> > > POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart
> > > from other
> > > things as they were suspicious.
> > > He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting
> > > the US.
> >
> > Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
> > around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
> > is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
> > get another one, not to mention costly?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> It's an international permit, not a license, and only useful if your
> drivers license is in a foreign language, or does not have a photo.
Don't worry too much.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> > Boiler wrote:
> > > > Nilda wrote:
> > [..]
> >
> > get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> > > I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips
> > > back, the
> > > POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart
> > > from other
> > > things as they were suspicious.
> > > He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting
> > > the US.
> >
> > Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
> > around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
> > is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
> > get another one, not to mention costly?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> It's an international permit, not a license, and only useful if your
> drivers license is in a foreign language, or does not have a photo.
Don't worry too much.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Oct 19th 2006, 2:54 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Boiler wrote:
> > Boiler wrote:
> > > > Nilda wrote:
> > [..]
> >
> > get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> > > I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips
> > > back, the
> > > POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart
> > > from other
> > > things as they were suspicious.
> > > He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting
> > > the US.
> >
> > Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
> > around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
> > is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
> > get another one, not to mention costly?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> Nobody forces youto drive in the US.
What kind line is that?
> A long time since I had a permit but I do not remember it being large,
> if this is an issue rent a larger vehicle?
You had a permit from where? The one from the country I was talking
about is about 3 1/2 times as big as the US stae DL and that is when it
is folded. If open it to hsow the pic and info, imagien how big it is.
And the visitor must also carry the DL card in native language, (which
also is biggerr than the ID card space in a wallet that can be put in a
men's pant pocket).
A woman can put these in a purse easily. A man can too if he continue
to carry that bid bag as a tourist. But if he is not a typical tourist
and just visiting family, who wants to carry stuff like a tourist when
just making a short trip to the mall or grocery store?
> Do not lose it would seem to be the obvious answer, but that would apply
> wherever you are.
Just read above. Once, I almost lost my passport - bigger than all the
ones I have seen from other countries. I was young (in my early days
here) and didn't have the habit of grabbing my purse all the time when
I went out. One day I went to make some xerox copies at a grocery store
near home (walked to it) and left it on that machine. Fortunately, I
remembered it just before I got home, turned around and went back.
Fortunatly the next user of the machine had given it to the return
counter there.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> > Boiler wrote:
> > > > Nilda wrote:
> > [..]
> >
> > get a DL in your home country before travelling to the US.
> > > I have a friend who is here on a B, he got quizzed a few trips
> > > back, the
> > > POE spent a lot of time trying to track down his US DL apart
> > > from other
> > > things as they were suspicious.
> > > He did not have one, if he had he would no longer be visiting
> > > the US.
> >
> > Interesting. How about if the visitor just doens't want to carry
> > around the Int'l DL _very big paper) because his country's government
> > is pain in the a*s that if he loses it, he will have lots of grive to
> > get another one, not to mention costly?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
> Nobody forces youto drive in the US.
What kind line is that?
> A long time since I had a permit but I do not remember it being large,
> if this is an issue rent a larger vehicle?
You had a permit from where? The one from the country I was talking
about is about 3 1/2 times as big as the US stae DL and that is when it
is folded. If open it to hsow the pic and info, imagien how big it is.
And the visitor must also carry the DL card in native language, (which
also is biggerr than the ID card space in a wallet that can be put in a
men's pant pocket).
A woman can put these in a purse easily. A man can too if he continue
to carry that bid bag as a tourist. But if he is not a typical tourist
and just visiting family, who wants to carry stuff like a tourist when
just making a short trip to the mall or grocery store?
> Do not lose it would seem to be the obvious answer, but that would apply
> wherever you are.
Just read above. Once, I almost lost my passport - bigger than all the
ones I have seen from other countries. I was young (in my early days
here) and didn't have the habit of grabbing my purse all the time when
I went out. One day I went to make some xerox copies at a grocery store
near home (walked to it) and left it on that machine. Fortunately, I
remembered it just before I got home, turned around and went back.
Fortunatly the next user of the machine had given it to the return
counter there.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Oct 19th 2006, 3:21 pm
#28
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Get a bigger bag?
Put it with your passport, you have to carry that with you anyway.
Put it with your passport, you have to carry that with you anyway.
Oct 19th 2006, 8:07 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Boiler wrote:
[..]
> Get a bigger bag?
> Put it with your passport, you have to carry that with you anyway.
Only a fool will do that taking the risk of losing the passport which
si very difficult to egtt the replacement from the thugs controlled
country. A wise person would leave it in the car or better yet, at
home, unless travellin form one city to naother.
As an F-1 holder student, I never did, not even before I got state ID
which I got before I got my DL.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
[..]
> Get a bigger bag?
> Put it with your passport, you have to carry that with you anyway.
Only a fool will do that taking the risk of losing the passport which
si very difficult to egtt the replacement from the thugs controlled
country. A wise person would leave it in the car or better yet, at
home, unless travellin form one city to naother.
As an F-1 holder student, I never did, not even before I got state ID
which I got before I got my DL.
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Oct 19th 2006, 11:39 pm
#30
BE Site Lead
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 92,172
Re: CA DL for those on visit visas
Originally Posted by Amanda
Only a fool will do that taking the risk of losing the passport which
si very difficult to egtt the replacement from the thugs controlled
country. A wise person would leave it in the car or better yet, at
home, unless travellin form one city to naother.
si very difficult to egtt the replacement from the thugs controlled
country. A wise person would leave it in the car or better yet, at
home, unless travellin form one city to naother.