superpat

Our oldest boy is 6 and we're starting to think about Cub Scouts. I'm a little wary, as the Boy Scouts of America seem quite different to the Scouts in the UK - browsing around a bit online reveals that they are very intolerant of atheism, agnosticism and homosexuality. Their website is pretty unequivocal - scouts have to be 'morally straight', and it's not difficult to find news items of teenagers being expelled for deciding that they don't believe in god.

Presumably, though, local groups will vary... They can't all be quite this extreme, can they? We're not a religious family at all, but we're not anti-religion - until recently he went to an Episcopal ('C of E' style) school.

What's your experience?

Cheers,

Pat

penguinsix

It depends a lot on where you live and who is involved in the leadership. They're much more intolerant of homosexuals than they are of agnostics, mainly because of the potential (and occasional history) of abuse.

Now that said, no one asked my religion or cared about religion until I got to the final stages (I was an Eagle Scout). Then I had to have an interview with my priest and talk about God and whether I believed or didn't and (much more importantly) why. They then filled out a form and that was put in my record before I was made an Eagle Scout.

There isn't necessarily a 'religion' requirement but there was a 'spirituality' awareness. They didn't necessarily care to which god (or any god) that you worshiped, but that you thought about these things. Someone who has thought in depth about whether or not they believe in God, and what sort of moral code they are going to live by absent some 'higher power' would be ok, but a lazy agnostic who hasn't really thought through why they believe what they believe would have to defend that choice when they got to the final steps (i.e. about 16-18 years old).

In short, I really wouldn't worry about it. Like almost everything in the US, it depends on what state and community you live in.

fwiw many scouts meet in churches or community centers (i.e fire stations, rec cents, etc. I think we met weekly in the basement of the Presbyterian church in our town, but only saw the chaplain once during my entire time (when we were playing floor hockey with brooms and a canned ham we 'found' in the food bank). He wasn't amused.

nethead

My husband is a USC he doesn't want our 6 year old son joining boy scouts either because of those reasons. It was mainly the overtly Christian overtones he couldn't stand.

ladyofthelake

What Penguin said. It all depends on your area, but our experience says that your concerns would be a non-issue.

Until this year, my son's cub scout pack was run by my husband and I, and we are all complete atheists. Nobody even asked what religion we were or what church we went to, they were just happy to have someone step up to the plate and take charge of a previously woeful pack.
There was a requirement during the grade 2 or 3 to discuss religion and what it means to the boys, but as this is a personal thing and everyone has a different opinion on this, it was left to each parent to discuss with their own boy at home. I recall our discussion was very brief

I really wouldn't worry about it, especially at your son's age. He will gain so much from joining scouts, and there's no knowing if he will stay with it to the end or not, so just enjoy it for the moment. With cub scouts, the pack is at least 50% smaller by the end of the year than it is at the beginning, as kids lose interest or find other things they want to do through the year. So just join up and see if he likes it or not, the BSA policies will have diddly squat effect on him enjoying scouts. I'm lucky, my son has stuck with it as is about to start his last year as a cub scout, and really enjoys it. We have made so many friends because of scouts and it helped us become part of the community. Not once has the issue of homosexuality or non religious people come up.

another bloody yank

I am a "Webelos" (Age group between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, boys who have completed third grade or are age 10 to the age of 12.) Leader and have been involved with the Scouts for five years or so now. The amount of stress put on subjects like that varies with the leadership and the makeup of that particular Pack or Troop. At the Webelos level, there is one requirement needed to earn the actual "Webelos" badge that involves Faith, see requirement 8a, 8b and 8c here: http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/adv...ut/webelos.asp Neither the other Leader or I are big into religion and we just kind of glossed over it. There is also the Cub Scout Promise, which mentions "Duty to God" and is usually recited at the beginning of a meeting, see here: http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/Ab...ys/values.aspx Homosexuality is a subject we just don't bring up at all. I just don't want to be the one to explain all that to someone else's 9 year old boy


Here are a couple of sites that should help with any other questions: http://usscouts.org/start.asp and the Official Cub Scout site: http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts.aspx

In my experience, the emphasis on religion is a lot less at the actual den level than you would think it would be from reading the official literature. But like I said, the majority of the adult leaders in my pack aren't extremely religious people. That's not to say there are any flaming liberals about either, and if you consider yourself pretty far to the left you might not find a whole lot of like minded people, although this is probably based on geography and the local culture. Remember, you can always change Packs to find one that better fits with your family and your views.


There are some alternatives to the BSA organization, one of the better known ones being the "Spiral Scouts" which is kind of a Pagan based coed thing although open to all religions. http://www.spiralscouts.org/

penguinsix

I remember in my troop some anti-nuclear activists came to speak. They were walking across country to protest Reagan and stopped in our town. They gave their spiel, and then all the Scouts looked back at them until one of my friends said 'so basically you're a bunch of Commies." It got harsher after that and they eventually left.

But I do think you're getting the main drift here--the Scouts will really be somewhat representative of the community you are living in and dependent in large part on the adult leaders who are active in the troop/den. Perhaps a slightly more conservative bent then the community at large. I mean at my summer camp we shot milk jugs with a .22 and .410 screaming 'death from above Charlie' or something silly (Apocalypse Now was out around then). Most Birkenstock-wearing liberals I know would freak a bit at that.

another bloody yank

Yeah , I think you pretty much nailed it.

ladyofthelake

Yeah, my husband became the WEBELOS leader this year too, and I forgot there was also a religious requirement this year. We also avoided doing that as group and left it to the parents to discuss at home. And you're right about the homosexual issue, no parent would want you to start that discussion with their kids.

Bottom line, the more involved you are in the pack, the more influence you have in how the pack deals with these issues.

another bloody yank

And the better the pack is as a whole. Parental involvement is extremely important. The first pack I started with as a leader, I was actually more of a baby sitter and it sucked. This past year my Boy's parents were wonderful and it really made a difference. They were at the meetings, they worked with their boys on projects at home, they volunteered, they went on the camping trips...it was great.

MsElui

the chrch nearest where our new house will be has a pack - i saw from the church preschool website. What kind of age do they generally start here? I suspect my 4 year old is a bit young - but want to be aware for the future when the most appropriate time would be. Also do they join at the beginning of a year? or anytime?

penguinsix

I think they generally start around 1st grade. Again it depends on the interest of others in your area. They are often year round and kids can join whenever, but I think they do a membership year somewhat similar to the school year.

http://www.scouting.org/Media/lcl.aspx will tell you the 'council' that handles your area (generally a few counties). From there they can direct you down to a local city or neighborhood contact.

JEM3110

We are toying with the idea of my boy starting Tiger Cubs in August and have gathered some info on it. In my area, they have to be 6/7 (entering First Grade). Most new members tend to join when school resumes after the summer break, in fact, before school broke up they were having a bit of a recruitment drive ready for the Fall. Also, with the Tigers, the parent has to stay during the Pack Meetings and be quite involved with the different activities.

ladyofthelake

It usually takes a while for parents to realise that to get the most out of scouts for your kids, you have to put in the time and effort yourself aswell. I've seen so many boys in the past have to drop out, even though they really enjoy it, because the parents are not into it. The "We're not really enjoying this" excuse gets me mad when they realise it's not a free hour of babysitting. It's fine if the boy doesn't want to do it, but some parents can't even bring themselves to spend 1 hour quality time doing activities with their kids and make them drop it.

We are lucky that we have 10 WEBELOS boys who have been in scouts since 1st grade and are now entering 5th grade. All the parents have a high input into the running of not only den meetings, but the entire pack. The big problem is we will all move on to Boy scouts in February and there's no one left to take over.

Giantaxe

Unsurprisingly, this being San Francisco, the scouts got banned from ujsing public premises such as schools for their meetings because of their anti-gay stance.

Btw, they are also prone to play around with flags more than their UK brethren.

joto

Our son went to Boy Scouts at the local Catholic church hall. All the other scouts and parents seemed to be catholic except us. He seemed to have to work twice as hard to get any promotions as most of the other boys. We did help out on occaision, but after seeing how cliquey church wise the others were, we decided not to wate our time. Our son did enjoy himself there, but did notice the things we noticed. I don't know what the problem was exactly, either not catholic, or British or being an immigrant, could have been any one of these or none. He did learn a lot of useful things while he was in the scouts, but he has aged out now.