Pimpbot

"And David Hardy, an Arizona lawyer specializing in gun issues who has worked for the National Rifle Association, has compiled a voluminous list of allegations, including Moore's heavy and misleading editing of NRA President Charlton Heston's speech in Denver after the Columbine massacre."

Of course he would, he works for the NRA! lol

Moore does no more than your average politician who stretches the facts to get his view point across. Which is probably why he worked for Ralph Nader(Green Party) during the last presidential campaign.

Stretched or not, it doesnt take away from a great documentry film that outlines the huge problem that is guns in America. You only need to look at the stats I posted in this thread to see that.

Duncs

I am confused. Around 58,226 men were killed in vietnam according to the memorial wall. So if 10,179 murders x 2 years then that leaves 18,934 other deaths each year from guns right? is that suicides or police shooting or what?

just wondered actually. by the way the sensible statistics are per hundred thousand not flat numbers as USA has 288,368,698 people against UK of 58,836,700. so thats around 4.9 times as many. mind you at a rough calculation gun murders 10,179 divide by 4.9 =2077 actual Uk figure = 78 in 2000. so i suppose thats something.

now to the point by the way. the UK has the toughest gun laws in the world, total ban on all private ownership from 1997.(not in Northern Ireland i would point out).

yet how does that explain this:

1. the number of firearm offences in the United Kingdom increased almost 40 percent from 4,903 in 1997 to 6,843 in 2000

2. U.K. police estimate that there are nearly 300,000 illegal guns in circulation there - one for every 200 people

since then:

3. Gun crime has risen by 35% in a year, new Home Office figures show. 9,974 incidents involving firearms in the 12 months to April 2002 - a rise from 7,362 over the previous year.

4. That represents an average of 27 offences involving firearms every day in England and Wales,

and heres the kicker:

'Gary Kleck of Florida State University, estimates that 180,000 guns are used in crimes in the United States each year. So despite the strict gun control laws, there are more than enough illegally held guns in the United Kingdom to allow gun crime there to reach U.S. proportions.'

sources:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti.../5/62251.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

i feel safer for knowing we have strict gun control in the UK as it so obviously works.
by the way when Moore compares he uses New Zealand but they have high gun ownership figures.
'Last year the UK with very low gun ownership (only 2 million guns among 60 million people) had 78 gun murders. In contrast, New Zealand, with high gun ownership (1 million guns among 3.5 million people) had just 8 gun murders.'

regards,

Duncan

Pimpbot

Blame the National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac for the stats, not me

If gun crime is rising in the UK that says to me that the police forces and the Government are not doing enough to combat the rise. 300,000 guns on the UK streets sounds like an awful lot and I'm not saying that its false, because I would have nothing to back up my claim, but if there are 300,000 ilegal guns on the UK streets and in 2000 there were only 6843 gun related crimes, that sounds an awful lot better than 180,000 guns actually being used for Crime in America according to your Gary Kleck source.

300,000 ilegal guns but only 6843 gun related crimes
Compared to
180,000 actually being used for crimes.

What figure screams out for a need for gun control?

I believe the population of Texas is around 20 million. Now thats some 40 million below the population of the entire United Kingdom, but I would lay odds that the gun crime in Texas is far higher than the UK. To compare the entire U.S. with the U.K. would be like comparing Cambridges gun related murder rate to that of London.

NC Penguin

I've heard, from NPR (National Public Radio) I believe, that many children and teenagers are killed "playing" with loaded guns every year in the US.

This page may have links that expand on the above-
http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/fact_file.asp

This page gives a breakdown on deaths of those aged 0-19-
http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/sta...s.asp?National

The data on the pages above comes from the CDC (Center for Disease Control), if anybody's wondering.



NC Penguin

Duncs

the figures appear to show that 193 deaths are caused by accidental shootings for those 0-19 years old. 1314 were accidentally drowned in 2000 so compare that figure. for younger children the numbers get even smaller as i understand it for under 4's its 19 deaths which is less than drown in paddling pools.

guns kill kids is just rhetoric to justify banning guns stupid irresponsible people with guns kill kids is nearer to the point. sfae gun ownership is no threat to anyone.

Duncs

couldnt find the statistics for gun crime in texas but you still miss the point, we have stringent gun control in the Uk yet we have 300,00 guns out there and i have heard police estimates that put it at 2-3 million guns now. The only people in the Uk with guns are the Police and the criminals which does not make me feel safer. In the UK as compared to the USA you are more likely to be robbed in your home, robbed in the street, raped or otherwise victmised by violent crime yet we have all this gun control so ordinary people dont get to defend themselves. in the USA guns are used to stop or prevent attacks in around 2.5 million cases. I dont exepct the police to save me when the time comes i or my wife needs protection, i will rely on myself i just ask that govt allows me the chance to protect myself effectively. just because some dicks out there abuse their guns why should i be left defenceless?

regards,

Duncan

Pimpbot

Duncan, I do not feel unsafe here in Arizona, just as I didnt in the U.K. However, I know that I see a lot more gun related crimes reported on my local TV news, than I ever saw on the BBC, ITN, Sky and the rest to know that Guns are a far bigger problem here no matter how many gun friendly stats you show me.

I understand your need for self protection, but if the government was funding the police properly, the rise in gun related crime in UK would fall. Thats easier said than done I know, but I fail to see how arming everybody would solve the crime problem, rather it would just make it worse.